It’s definitely not this one incident which makes me so against teacher tenure. This is just a drop in the bucket so to speak. I highly disagree that the most experienced teachers are the best. It’s been my experience that many are the most burned out, lacking creativity and patience, and have perfected knowing what they can get away with. Why would teachers be given a special right to keep a job when they don’t perform well? My children go to private school and in their school, if you are not doing well or do something against the school’s mission, you don’t have the option of going to a “rubber room”; you simply get fired… just as you would if you worked at an office, a bank, a warehouse, or countless other private held sectors. No one’s job is safe these days and that actually gives you incentive to step up and do better. Tenure does the opposite because you know you’ll keep your job. I know way too many young teachers who are fresh, patient, and better equipped to deal with new teaching philosophies and tools, like technology, who unfortunately will be the first to go while tenured teachers will keep their jobs no matter what. Keeping a job, ESPECIALLY teaching children, should be based solely on merit- NOT how many years a teacher has been there .

Danielle,

It is easy for people to make claims about how education should be but most people, including you, are speaking from a position of ignorance. It takes at least five years to become a decent teacher and most teachers work to improve themselves every year.

Tenure does not protect a lazy teacher; bad administrators do.

You send your kids to private school yet you feel you have a special knowledge about how lazy public school teachers are? That’s bias and ignorance speaking, not experience and training.

Any teacher can be removed from the classroom… even a tenured teacher. It simply requires the administrator to follow a process. Good administrators do it when it is needed. Of course, good administrators don’t hire bad teachers and keep their teachers from burning out.

On the other hand, bad administrators do not removed bad teachers and bad administrators can and do hold grudges against teachers for political and personal reasons.

Every teacher I work with earns their pay and their status. But we also can speak up when our principal makes a bad decision… we couldn’t do that without tenure. Tenure protects the good teachers more than the bad.

As a former student of Ms. Milo, anyone who knows her describes her as a funny, sweet and caring person. I understand the remarks were innapropiate but her colleagues should know by now she would never do such a thing. As far as her teaching credentials Ms. Milo is an excellent art teacher that keeps her students engaged. Don’t make this a matter of school politics. Even though Fort Hamilton is a public school it gave me a great foundation for the higher learning I am doing now. The reports that I have read are obscure and it sounds like bitter students and teachers are the only ones being interviewed. Fort Hamilton, despite its shaky few past months, still remains one of the safest high schools in Brooklyn.

This woman certainly should have been fired – no question. However, I’m not sure targeting tenure itself is a logical conclusion. Tenure doesn’t mean that you cannot be fired; it’s just more difficult. I feel this was an example of poor judgment on the behalf of the administration. Were she to sue the school system, I can’t think of any court of law that would decide in favor of this woman based on what she has done, which is to be a direct threat to the student body on more than one occasion. Perhaps the answer is to review tenure every 5-10 years to make certain the teacher still deserves it. The cranky, burned out, or indifferent teachers should not continue in the system unless they too are showing evidence of good teaching.
BTW, I teach at a private college. There is no tenure system here. We still have bad teachers.

Yes. One loony proves it. All teachers are dangerous lunatics. I begin to think Babble has a Republican agenda against public education. Teachers in general are to blame for every grade except straight As, thoe are all about good parenting. Teacher are lazy idiots who do not deserve minimum wage because they don’t do anything but sit there gazing blankly at the students unless they are viciously abusing them. You do realize the destruction of public education is geared to repealing child labor laws and putting the lower classes back where they belong. Serving the rich, or cannon fodder. Removing good teachers from public schools by treting them like crap and making sure they will never repay their student loansmakes it so the only people who get a good education are the rich. Ask yourself, who benefits from that?

Like I said before, this is just one example, there are many, many more (and much less severe situations) in which teachers who should be fired are allowed to stay. I have personally spoken on two occasions with teachers in my area who matter-of-factly said they simply can’t stand their preschool and Kindergarten students and I ask why should teachers who do the bare minimum to keep their jobs be allowed to stay when there are so many engaged and creative teachers out there? I have heard them say they once they get tenure, they are essentially safe. I am not talking about the countless teachers who love what they do and are good at it. And again, where else would you be able to keep your job when you you are not performing well? Companies aren’t responsible for their employees repaying personal student loans, why should schools be? Schools should attract the cream of the crop, children deserve the best. In my children’s schools, we have had a few problem teachers, and they were promptly dismissed. Why would this be so terrible in all schools?

Danielle,

If these TWO non-tenured teachers actually get tenure, then either they ARE doing their job OR their administrator is lazy. Bad administrators happen in business too. Of course, that’s assuming that you didn’t misunderstand them and the situation.

But you have all of THREE examples of ‘bad teachers’ and you equate that with ‘why tenure needs to go’. It is really quite poor reasoning on your part. I’ve worked in several states as a teacher and the number one predictor of whether a ‘bad teacher’ is removed is how effective the principal is… regardless of the tenure status of the teacher.

And this line made me laugh, “Companies aren’t responsible for their employees repaying personal student loans, why should schools be?” Actually, that’s not true. Many companies DO pay for tuition or provide payment for student loans as a condition of employment. Schools do not.
Schools don’t pay for student loans nor do they pay the tuition for classes we are required by law to take, we pay for those.

Clearly, you know nothing about public education and have bought into the anti-teacher rhetoric being sprayed about by the right and the left because they are listening to FAILED teachers who quit after three years in the classroom (Michelle Rhee) to go on to spout their mouths about how bad teachers are rather than listening to experienced veteran teachers.

Danielle,

That is the process agreed to by THAT district. Every district is different. In my school, I’ve seen teachers removed instantly and investigations completed in a few weeks.

Bad administration has nothing to do with tenure.

And really, Danielle, do you honestly think it a good thing that most people in this nation can be fired FOR NO REASON at a moment’s notice? Management need to clear the budget a bit to make room for their raises and bonuses… fire 200. Driving the wrong car.. fire him. Wow.. that secretary is getting old, time for new eye candy.

Do you really think it is good that pretty people, thin people get better salaries and more raises, are more likely to survive lay offs than fat, old or ugly? Do you really think it is a good idea that people lose their jobs because they have more seniority and are more expensive?

Tenure rules mean that I make the same as the man in the classroom next to me with the same experience; I don’t have to worry about whether he is getting more because he ‘has a family to take care of.’ Tenure rules mean that as teachers get more experienced and more expensive we aren’t laid off to be replaced by a teacher right out of school who is going to take five years to get up to speed.

The teachers I spoke with were acquaintances in social situations, had nothing to do with a parent/student relationship at all. Lisa, I am relieved to hear that in your district teachers can be fired swiftly if deemed necessary. I wish that were true here in NYC where so much money goes into investigating cases of teachers who should be immediately let go due to criminality. I don’t say that anyone should be fired for any reason, that’s certainly twisting my words. Obviously, there has to be a substantial reason. In my experience over 18 years of parenting, I can personally recall just two instances where a teacher was terrible and deserved to be fired. In both cases they were, but they were in private schools where tenure didn’t exist. I have worked for several companies in which although I was a writer/editor, we were expected to follow the mission and the CEO, no matter how wrong he/she might be and if we didn’t we knew we’d either have to quit or would be terminated. We had no protection. The majority of my children’s teachers were wonderful, fully engaged and thoughtful professionals that I admire. I would never believe that teachers are ineffectual as a group, but there are those that abuse the system and deny children getting a decent education. I’m sure as a teacher you can mentally recall a few that you have met over the years. Doesn’t that bother you to see these teachers given the same rights that very good teachers have? There has to be a better way. I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

” I have worked for several companies in which although I was a writer/editor, we were expected to follow the mission and the CEO, no matter how wrong he/she might be and if we didn’t we knew we’d either have to quit or would be terminated. We had no protection.”
I would think that because of this experience you would be even more grateful that you now write for Babble, which is clearly allowing you to speak your mind. Shouldn’t teachers be afforded the same piece of mind?

” The majority of my children’s teachers were wonderful, fully engaged and thoughtful professionals that I admire. I would never believe that teachers are ineffectual as a group…”
This directly contradicts your thesis in your original post as well as most of your comments. If this is how you feel, why would you want to remove tenure as an option from all of these wonderful, fully engaged and thoughtful professionals?

“but there are those that abuse the system and deny children getting a decent education. I’m sure as a teacher you can mentally recall a few that you have met over the years.”
Yes, I can recall a few, and I have already mentioned them, several times. Perhaps you are not reading my comments in their entirety.

“Doesn’t that bother you to see these teachers given the same rights that very good teachers have?”
No, it does not bother me that we are all given the same rights. What bothers me is the abuse of these rights. This reminds me of the argument that the KKK should not be given free speech rights because they spout hatred. While I hate what they say, I also know that censoring them is one step closer to censoring me. The problem lies not in rights, but in the lack of punitive measures taken against individuals who abuse said rights – in this case, the administration failing to fire these teachers.

” There has to be a better way.”
I believe there are better ways, and I have referred to at least one idea already – review of tenured teachers every 5-10 years. Again, perhaps you are not reading my comments.

” I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one.”
This statement feels purely conciliatory; as though you simply want to end the dialogue on this subject. I find it a strange thing to say, because if you read carefully what I have written above you will find that we agree on a lot; the only exception being that I do not believe we should remove the rights of many based on the actions of a few.

None of my children’s teachers had tenure, as I stated earlier and they were fabulous despite working without the “protection”. Many have been in the field for many years and many have been new. I’m grateful for them all. The more experienced ones have had very fulfilling careers and it shows- without tenure. I live in NYC so in the close suburbs, teachers regularly make $100K+. The case I mentioned was in Long Island. Regular tenure review would be a good start.

This movement to paint teachers as the new welfare-queens is out of control and fueled by utter ignorance. Danielle, this is your opinion and your entitled to it (I guess…)–but you need to relax the claim that it’s BASED on something–other than anecdotal findings, ignorance and your own desire to be a bully. Just because there are jobs that can fire people on a whim and without cause or do process DOESN’T MAKE IT RIGHT.
Lisa, you rock!

This is one of the most annoying posts ever. Do you understand the difference between a private school and a public school? One is for profit. It will work more similarly to other businesses when it comes to how people are reviewed or fired. The problems in public schools are many, but tenure is not the issue. I agree with all the comments here. This is an opinion fueled by ignorance and an inability to understand the concepts necessary to have this conversation.

HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THESE ACCUSATIONS ARE EVEN TRUE?
It seems everyone here has convicted her without hearing all the facts, only the allegations. We don’t even know who made this alleged report, or why they waited so long to report it. If it were reported right away I would say maybe the allegations were more credible. but the fact that time had elapsed shows doubt as the the authenticity of the allegation.

It seems to me that Milo was well liked by her students but disliked by at least one or more her colleges and possibly the schools administration.

if you don’t like someone all you need to do is make an anonymous phone call to 911 saying “so and so” has a gun, that you have seen it, and wham the police will break down anyone’s door, In this case tell some one you have heard them make a watered down statement.

terrorist threats is a crime defined by statute, the one must make a threat, with an intent to cause fear, do so in a manner that is public, and must be specific to an action that is a crime.

S 490.20 Making a terroristic threat.
1. A person is guilty of making a terroristic threat when with intent
to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence the policy of a
unit of government by intimidation or coercion, or affect the conduct of
a unit of government by murder, assassination or kidnapping, he or she
threatens to commit or cause to be committed a specified offense and
thereby causes a reasonable expectation or fear of the imminent
commission of such offense.
2. It shall be no defense to a prosecution pursuant to this section
that the defendant did not have the intent or capability of committing
the specified offense or that the threat was not made to a person who
was a subject thereof.
Making a terroristic threat is a class D felony.

Why are teachers treated differently int heir jobs than basically every other professional? Why do they even need tenure? My husband, a mechanical engineer, could get fired for any number of reasons, purely at the discresion of his bosses. A tenured teacher practically has to be convicted of a major felony in order to get fired. Why shouldn’t a principal be able to fire a teacher if he/she doesn’t get along with other teachers very well, is consantly complained about by parents, etc. Why shouldn’t things like that be enough to get teachers fired when it is enough to get most other professionals fired if the boss so desires?

Amanda

Do you really think it reasonable that your husband can be laid off at a whim? I don’t.

You shouldn’t be fired because your boss is a sociopath.
You shouldn’t be fired because your boss is listening to co-workers bad mouth you.
You shouldn’t be fired because of grumpy customers.
You should only lose your job when you aren’t doing it properly.

Teachers, even tenured teachers, lose their job when they don’t do it properly.

Amanda- Thank you for your comments. They are exactly what I was trying to convey. This happens very often in NYC. I’m sure that in other places, the educational situation is better. I hope so anyway.

Manjari – Maybe a teacher’s pay shouldn’t be primarily based on time served then, huh?