No. I believe that this behavior fails the “Be a (bleeping) human being” test for interacting with others. People need to get over themselves and realize that unless someone’s parenting choice impacts them or their child DIRECTLY, its NY/TFB. End of discussion.

I’m kind of on the fence. While I think people do absolutely need to be kind and cautious, not everyone will be and you open yourself up to these attacks when you post something that has such strong opinions, whether they are similar or opposing. Unfortunately, it’s the nature of the beast.

@PlumbLucky–yes, you are right about the need for sensitivity. At the same time, saying it’s “none of your f’ing business” is irrelevant when one publicly writes about it and allows for open comments. Just sayin’…

I’m not sure this really falls into the ‘Mom Wars’ category. Most of the “intactivists” are men, at least when I’ve encountered them in other settings.

I see what LogicalMama is saying. Of course it is wrong to attack people. However, if you want people to mind their own business why write a blog about it? I really don’t understand this need to publish to the world every private matter, and then act shocked when anyone makes a comment.

Questioning anther’s decision is not bullying. Dissenting against a parent’s choice to allow cosmetic surgery, which circumcision is since it is not recommended by any major medical association, on a non-consenting infant is not bullying. Posting comments on a public blog is not bullying.

@Danielle, I must be way out of date – my contact with people with a fanatical anti-circumcision mindset was back in the Usenet days.

As a male who was circumcised in infancy, i find real discontent with the stories and comments like these. Where were my rights? How come a woman has “my body, my decision” and i don’t? Circumcision is an ethical crime. Plain and simple. You circumcise and you’re causing life long crippling effects from destruction of simple penile function to decreased sensitivity from lack of protection and from the nerves removed during the procedure. Especially the fact that it is ELECTIVE!!! WTF!!! This should be as illegal as female circumcision is.

@LogicalMom et. al. – I agree it probably should not have been written in a blog…my “Nunya” comment related more to the everyday than to the specific incident.
I still stand by the “its bullying and its completely unacceptable” in regards to people saying that “she deserved it because she had her son circ’ed”. I wonder if anyone who had the gall to write it would have the stones to walk up to her and say it face to face. I’m guessing there might be one or two, but not many…

Of course it is completely unacceptable to tell someone they are responsible for their child’s death because of something totally unrelated. Now, if you post things up online, do people have every right to comment, absolutely! But that doesn’t mean that commenter’s should attack someone or be cruel. What good does something like that do? Personally, it makes me I hate these supposed “intactivists” and I would pretty much disregard anything they have to say and I’m sure I’m not the only person who feels that way. How does that help their cause? How hard is it to show some common decency and disagree respectfully???

If you chose to blog about something in a forum that accepts comments, you’re going to get comments, particularly on a subject known to be devisive. Of course it’s horrible and tragic that a mother lost her child, and I’d hope people would exercise some common courtesy. That being said, that doesn’t make every comment about the ethics of amputating the healthy body part of a newborn boy for cosmetic purposes “bullying”, “inappropriate”, or a “non-issue.”

Also, I’m a little confused by how this story is just linked to another person’s blog post. How acurate is this information? I’m not clear about whether the child died as result of the circumcision or if it had nothing to do with it. Do we even know?

My nephew has Hypoplastic Left Heart Syndrome. His mother also chose to have him circumsized at a later time and without going into detail he suffered a side effect of the surgery that he continues to cope with today. It may not have been the decision I would have made. However. If one of these jackholes decided to harrass her because of their own issues mourning the loss of their foreskins, I would rear back with my right foot and destroy their ability to utilize what remained of their reproductive organ.

I agree that sensitivity at a time like this is expected- and there are fringes of activists in every movement that don’t represent all those involved. While it is clear that the child should not have been put through the stress of having part of his sexual organs cut off- the responsibility lies with the physicians who agreed to do it. Parents should not be able to pressure physicians to perform unnecessary surgery for any reason at any time. As a health care provider I have denied referrals for circumcisions because they ARE NOT necessary and complications including death do occur. As as far as making them illegal- I agree that boys and girls should have the same protection under the law-regardless how little or how much is cut off. Childrens sexual organs should be left alone- if they choose to do it when they are adults for whatever reason, that is their choice. As for religious circumcisons- allowing them to be circumcised as children takes away THEIR religious rights.

It shows a real lack of compassion, and a real disconnect from a humane treatment of others feelings.
People need to worry about the own plank in their own eyes before digging the splinter out of someone else.

Jill is the only one that EVER eluded to her being the cause of her child’s death. She conveniently deleted her blog entry to cover that fact and then started RUMORS of us protesting her baby’s funereal. NONE of us would ever do such a thing. We are planning a protest WEEKS AFTER the funeral at the hospital for pushing an unnecessary surgery on a child in NICU with a heart condition that had not yet “recovered” and wasn’t even out of the woods on that issue but we have ALL stood by this woman and feel deeply for her loss!
Here are her posts by her own words the circumcision worsened his condition…
Tuesday, October 5, 2010

I almost killed my baby
Warning: This post is not meant to be a debate. Please, do not leave me nasty comments about circumcision and how I don’t love God because we chose to have it done. After all we have been through, I don’t have the energy to listen to a debate that isn’t going to do any good at this point. Also, please don’t leave nasty comments about the doctors, nurses, hospital, etc. Hear me out, and if you don’t have anything nice to say, then don’t say anything at all please. I know how much all of you love Joshua and just want what is best for him and I know you guys are just as upset as I am. Please be gentle with me tonight- I am feeling extremely fragile and guilty.

I talked to the doctor yesterday about getting Joshua circumcised. We have talked to them from the time of Joshua’s birth and told them that we wanted it done. He was originally going to have it done with the g-tube surgery a few weeks ago, but when the surgery didn’t happen, neither did the circ. They have told us over and over that the bigger the baby gets, the more likely they are to bleed. They are trying to get the circ’s done right after birth due to the bleeding risk.

The doctor came in this morning and asked if we wanted to get it done today. I said yes. I asked her about Joshua’s asprin dose and she assured me that enough time had passed since his last dose to not be a risk factor. I also asked the nurse and the nurse assured me that enough time had passed, but she also asked the doctor in front of me to give me that extra reassurance.

They brought in the consent form, I signed, and Joshua was circumcised at around 1:00pm. At 2 when they checked him, he was still bleeding quite a bit. They cleaned it off, put pressure on it, and then said they would check him again at 2:30. This continued on a few more times, and then the doctor became slightly concerned.

She finally decided to stand at Joshua’s bed for just about 2 1/2 hours holding his penis and putting pressure on it to try to get it to stop bleeding. They tried guaze, some sort of powder that was supposed to help it stop bleeding, pressure, and more powder. Nothing worked.

Finally the doctor called the urologist. He came over around 7:30. He said that Joshua needed a stitch or two to stop the bleeding. Apparently they knicked an arteri and that is why he wasn’t stopping.

Thankfully the urologist was able to stop the bleeding with just one stitch.

Right at this very moment, Joshua is now back on 85% oxygen through his nasal cannula, his sats are in the upper 60′s, he’s drugged, pale, and his crit levels are at 41. They are going to give him until midnight and run his crit levels again. If they have not risen, then he will receive yet another blood transfusion.

I should have known better. I should have said no. I had hoped that he would do well and that it wouldn’t be such a big deal. But instead, I almost killed my child by consenting.

Why can’t this poor baby catch a break? Why can’t he just have one thing go right for him? Why did I have to say yes?

I’m watching him sleep and I’m struggling with extreme guilt over all of this. I put him through it. Shane and I chose to have this done to him. It wasn’t necessary. Why did we do that? Why is this so freaking hard?

I’ve already recieved texts, emails, and messages from quite a few people who are pissed that this even happened. I don’t like it either, but please be gentle. I know you guys have good intentions, and nothing but love for Joshua, but please know I would have never said yes if I had known it would have turned out this way. Please be kind.
-Jill

once again by her own admission the DOCTOR didn’t say he was stable he said he was “somewhat” stable…these doctors knew they shouldn’t be preforming an unnecessary surgery on a child that was NOT stable! THAT IS ALL WE HAVE EVER SAID!
read it:
Tuesday, October 5, 2010

Circumcision
Joshua is going to be circumcised today. It was going to originally be done with his G-tube surgery a few weeks ago, but since he decided that almost dying was more fun that getting a g-tube, the circumcision didn’t happen.

Now that he is “somewhat” stable, the doctor didn’t want to wait any longer to get it done. There is a risk that comes with having Joshua circumcised. Once the babies are bigger, they run a higher risk of bleeding too much. The longer we wait, the higher the risk of bleeding. So the doctor ordered for it to be done TODAY.

Please continue to pray that Joshua remains stable and does not have any excessive bleeding. Shane and I have gone back and forth with even getting it done- the thought of putting him through even one more procedure makes me sick- but we have agreed that it just needs to be done and the sooner the better.

I’ll update once it’s done. Thanks for the prayers!
-Jill
- – - – -

Unfortunately, a lot of this has been blown way out of proportion. There were some very insensitive and inappropriate comments posted originally. Since those comments have been taken down, there seems to have been a backlash against all intactivists for the actions of only a few. The overwhelming response I see from intactivists is one of sadness at the tragedy of the mother’s loss. The only negative posts I am seeing are against the intactivists and those negative posts include rumor mongering and misinformation. That is sad.

EMILY is incorrect when she says “What a person, or in the case of a newborn baby, that person’s parents, does with their private parts is a completely private desicion.” Wrong, wrong, wrong. Half of the population in the USA is protected absolutely from the parents or anyone else even pinpricking their genitals, whether a tiny drop of blood is lost or not. The other half you can kill by mutilating and amputating the most nerve-dense part and get paid handsomely for it, all because US Americans, for the most part, grew up clueless about sex and sex organs, and, if male, similarly mutilated. Get a clue, EMILY.

LINDA says, “I’m not clear about whether the child died as result of the circumcision or if it had nothing to do with it. Do we even know?”
The child was born with a defective heart, and was operated on shortly after birth, three days, I think. The child lived for 51 days after he was born and was then circumcised, unnecessarily as the mother, in great distress, points out. The child bled for hours. (It only takes the loss of about 2 tablespoons of blood to kill an infant from hypovolemic shock. They don’t have very much blood. They’re tiny. They can’t afford to lose much.) Then he died, less than 24 hours after the unnecessary circumcision. DId the trauma and blood loss inflicted unnecessarily on this poor, sick baby have anything to do with it’s death? The doctors say no. But do they have strong financial, professional, personal and emotional interests in believing and having the parents and everyone else including you and me believe that the circumcision and death were unrelated? In other words, do they have very strong conflicts of interest here? Why should anyone believe THEM? Did they know that circumcising sick, especially seriously sick children is medically contraindicated? In other words, medical malpractice? Apparently not. They must have been as clueless about circumcising and its consequences as are most other doctors and parents in the USA. The best thing that can come out of this terrible tragedy is for every new parent and every physician in the country to learn that you NEVER, *NEVER*, NEVER!!!! CIRCUMCISE SICK CHILDREN. Even better would be if we all learned whose foreskin it is in the first place. HIS BODY, HIS CHOICE. Violation of the human right to bodily integrity of children and the adults they will become if we don’t kill them first and reckless endangerment of children’s lives are crimes. Those are facts. Denial of them doesn’t change them.

Comments PLEASE, lets name names. Lets quote the supposed harrasment. OR SHUT UP because it’s just been made up or blown out of proportion. NOBODOY bullied this lady on her blog about the death, it couldn’t have happened because she closed the comments feature. IT NEVER HAPPENED.

BEFORE she chose to subject her sick baby to cosmetic surgery a lot of people posted reasons why it wasn’t a good or idea or it wasn’t respectful of HIS basic human right to keep his whole body and make HIS OWN informed decision at a rational age.

That’s ANTI-BULLYING.

It is certanly insensitive to demonstrate anywhere near greiving family and friends. However, anyone that thinks the circumcision is not a factor in his death is being silly. This is serious trauma that they subjected the kid to. It was certainly a bad decision and a medical professional outrage. The parent is silly and misinfomred for wanting this. However, the doctor has done HARM, leading to death. This should never have been alowed in a medical setting. They did great harm to a fragil child.

People somehow do not understand that they disconnected tens of thousands of nerves from a baby boys brain when he was haveing troubles. Yes, this is sensory system damage. MALE Circumcision is nerve damage cutting off about 20000 fine touch and stretch sensing nerve endings and removing a source of pleasure from the male FOR LIFE. This is 2/3 of the total pleasure source amputated! This is nerves, blood vessels, protective covering and pleasure zones taken away from a human before the human can experience this.

Having had a child in the NICU, I really feel for this poor woman. Many of the things she experienced I relate to, although luckily I did not lose my child. However, I am surprised that anybody feels still feels strongly enough about circumcision to have it performed on a tiny baby struggling to live. The last thing I wanted for my child was any more medical interventions. I held off on some not urgent vaccinations and shots because he didn’t need any more damn needles even. I don’t know of any religious reasons that circumcision would be considered necessary in the Christian church. Are there these reasons?

ann05 says, “I don’t know of any religious reasons that circumcision would be considered necessary in the Christian church. Are there these reasons?”
Christianity rejected circumcising the body at the very beginning of Christianity (read Acts 15 in the New Testament), and has throughout Christian history. See http://catholicsagainstcircumcision.org The New Testament contains strong anti-circumcision sentiment. What would the people complaining so loudly about today’s intactivists’ tactics and language say about Saint Paul if they knew he said,

“Beware of the dogs,
beware of the evil-workers,
beware of those who mutilate the flesh!”
Philippians 3:2

Talk about name calling!

And how about this jewel from the same Christian saint?

“I only wish that those troublemakers who want to mutilate you by circumcision would castrate themselves.”
Galatians 5:12

Whoa! That’s pretty clear, isn’t it?

Circumcising is not now, never has been and never will be a Christian act. Christians who don’t read their New Testaments don’t know this. What does Saint Paul say about them?

“10 For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. 11 They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. [Ill-gotten money.] 12 Even one of their own prophets has said, “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.”
Titus 1:10-16

By their fruits you will know these mutilators. The wages of their sin is death. Death is always what they give, death of the foreskin, death of God-created wholeness, sometimes death of the whole child.

“How may deaths will it take ’til he knows that too many people have died?”, asked Bob.

How many deaths will it take ’til we ALL know that circumcising has killed too many babies and children?

How many? There is a number. How many? What’s YOUR number? Please fill in the blank ______________

And Danielle, Welcome to Strollerderby. And thank you so much for posting a story that was full of lies and inaccuracies. Good to know what we can expect from you in the future.

@Linda, also to address your comment about the loss of your child, and how you dealt with it 9 years ago, times have changed in the past 9 years drastically. Today a mother going through a medical condition like a CHD has a large online support community. I learned this through a young mothers loss of her first child at 5 days old to an undetected CHD. The website is http://corasstory.org and this woman has played our her journey this past year and created so much awareness over something she knew nothing about when her daughter was born.
I have also witnessed mothers grieving miscarriage, stillbirths, and other infant deaths through communities online such as twitter, and cafemom. It is a place for women to connect when they may not have a large enough support system in their own life, or may not feel comfortable talking with family about their feelings, or loss.
Everyone grieves differently, and for anyone to take a shot at a mother, because she does not grieve the way we feel she should is inhumane.

Oh wait, I see now that I misread and your dead bay was just a “what if.” Even better. Best of luck with regulars once all this hysteria dies down.

@Linda “Wow. The christian bible is really anti-semitic (says the Jew who chose not to circumsise the second time around.)”
The Christian saint I quoted speaking out strongly against circumcision was Paul, a Jew. “A Jew’s Jew”, he said. A Pharisee. He was not anti-Semitic. He loved Jews. He WAS a Jew. Being against circumcision, strongly against it, and strongly opposing those who do it, doesn’t make you anti-Semitic. To be anti-Semitic you have to hate Jews. You say you didn’t circumcise the second time around. Does that make you anti-Semitic? I doubt it. Sounds to me like you love Jews, your second son and probably your first as well, and because of that protected your second son from genital mutilation when you learned that circumcising is wrong. You can hate circumcising without hating Jews. Many Jews and others, you included it sounds like, are anti-genital mutilation without being anti-Semitic. Here’s another: George Wald, Jewish Nobel laureate Harvard biology professor, now deceased. You can read about his essay, “Circumcision”, at http://StopInfantCircumcision.org/crick-wald.htm

This sickens me. Bullies grow up to become adults who bully. I wrote about this today on my little blog..
http://midwesternmamah.blogspot.com/2010/10/adult-bullying-other-adults.html

If anybody is to blame in the Haskins tragedy, it is the scientific and ethical blindness of American medical schools and teaching hospitals, when they teach medical students and residents to circumcise, and teach nothing about the value of what circumcision removes. American doctors are, by and large, amazingly ignorant about sexual desire and acts.

I have read in other places of allegations of people using the internet to say appallingly hurtful things to the dead boy’s grieving mother. I agree that the only appropriate thing to say to the parents and extended family of a child that has died are expressions of condolence and sympathy.

Mainstream America needs to come to terms with the fact that a growing number of Americans, and some foreigners, find American routine infant circumcision morally and sexually repugnant. If parents don’t want to take any heat for circumcising their sons, they should keep it a private matter. If one does not one wish to be attacked for a belief or practice, that belief or practice should not be put in the public domain. This is a matter of elementary common sense, and a major reason why the cultural norm of privacy exists.

The Haskins family did the right thing in taking their blog down. And it is the prerogative of a blog owner to delete any comment posted therein. A few of my comments have been deleted over the years and I have to accept that.

If a child of mine died for any reason, I hope that I would refrain from blogging about it for 3 months, and then begin with a post carefully crafted in Word. I would give a lot of thought to disallowing comments. The whys and wherefores of my child’s death is not something I would care to debate with strangers.