[...] Arizona mother who compared her hospital’s policy of not allowing VBACs to rape has come up with a solution to her dilemma:  She’s moving 350 miles away to have her [...]

[...] up and switch doctors, even if it did mean traveling 350 miles to get the birth you wanted, you painted the following on your rear window “Page Hospital, enter my body without permission. . . Sounds like rape to [...]

Rape?? Um, no, it does NOT sound like rape to me. You should be ashamed of yourself. And sorry, but in tough economic times, hospitals have to think about the bottom line, especially with so many uninsured people that they are obligated to treat.

Though economic times does not call for putting patients health or even lives at risk. I do not care if the hospital is going bankrupt, it does not give them the right to force me to have a C-section when I can well give birth naturally. When I was in labor the first time, my doctor was calling for a C-section, even though it was like the fourth time he walked in the delivery room to check on me and if it wasn’t for the angel delivery nurse that was with me that night, I would have had a C-section, when I did not need one. She told the doctor flat out that I was totally capable of giving birth naturally and that was the end :)

Um, if she doesn’t want Page hospital to “enter her body” she shouldn’t use Page hospital. Yes, I know that sounds a little flip, but frankly if having a VBAC is that important to her, she can pay for it herself at another hospital if insurance payment is an issue. This isn’t a story about doctors and a hospital forcing their will on her body—this is a story about a hospital refusing to participate in what it considers

1.)Dangerous

2.)A poor use of the hospital’s stretched-thin resources

Hospitals, public and private, have an obligation to provide appropriate medical care. That medical care should take into consideration the plans and wants of the patient, but shouldn’t bend over backwards for them. Doctors, the people who devote their adult lives to constantly updating their knowledge of the human body and the ways to treat it, must have the final say in what is appropriate medical care. Patients have the right to disagree and to refuse said treatment but NEVER a right to force and bully the doctor or hospital into giving treatment on the patient’s terms.

Comparing a hospital’s refusal to do what she wants to rape is a gross insult to real victims of sexual assault.

Oh, and as far as “forcing” her to have c-section, they won’t. This patient would have to sign forms of consent unless she were brought into the hospital on the verge of death. The fact that the hospital doesn’t offer a VBAC does not mean she will be tied down and cut open against her will. If she chooses to go to Page, she will be told, “We can give you a CS or we can send you home or to another hospital. If you want the CS sign these forms, if you want the transfer, sign these forms.” This woman has limited choices because of her location, yes, but no one is forcing her to live there or to have a c-section.

Laura, there have been cases of forced c-section, and that is an absolute tragedy. This is not even close to what is happening here. They have made their policy, which has medical, financial, and legal reasons, crystal-clear and she is trying to bully them. This woman’s right to choose is perfectly intact. In this country, the right to choose is NOT the right to force someone else to accommodate your choice. She has the right a VBAC, but the hospital has the right to not provide it. I have the right to an abortion, but St. Mary’s Hospital has the right to tell me to get lost if I ask them to perform it. I have the right to pull all my teeth and get dentures if I want, but the dentist has a right to say “not in my practice.” The hospital doesn’t feel they can provide enough staff to attend a VBAC without compromising other patients. They have an obligation to all their patients, not just Ms. Szabo.

I agree that likening her hospitals VBAC policy, which she is clearly well aware of far in advance, to a violent crime is inflammatory and irresponsible. That being said, many women don’t have a choice when it comes to the location of their labor and delivery if they want it in a medical facility. Many have access to only one community hospital that serves a large geographic area but doesn’t have the resources or demand for the staff required by the ACOG standard for VBAC. My reaction to the ACOG standard has always been, if the hospital declares that they don’t have the ability to accommodate a possible emergency c-section resulting from a failed VBAC, should they really be delivering babies at all? As we are all well aware from the skyrocketing surgical birth rates “emergency” c-sections happen all the time with women who do not have any preexisting risk. Surely these are not all happening in university or tertiary-level centers with in-house obstetric and anesthesia coverage.

I think this woman should go have her kid in a pile of leaves in the woods.

I also agree that the word “rape” in this situation is ridiculous and diminishes the painful experiences of women who are ACTUALLY sexually assaulted.

But I’d like to point out that this hospital is feeding her a line of BS. If there are enough doctors and nurses and other medical professionals on staff to handle more than 2 or 3 laboring women at once time, there are enough to do the VBAC. Especially since the rate of first-time-mom c-sections is so high. Likely there will be at least one “emergency” c-section performed on a first time mom anyhow, what would they do with her if they’re too understaffed to be ready for an emergency c-section on any other patient??

So, Lee, instead of minimizing risk by insitituting a perfectly reasonable policy against VBACs, a rural hospital should put ALL the women in its community at risk by not offering OB at all? Riiiight. The reason they are delivering babies at all is that there is a need for babies to be delivered and struggling to meet that need is better than doing nothing at all.

It is not rape. She is free to go to another hospital. Most women wanting VBACS make sure to find our their hospital’s stance on them, and if it does not tally with their wishes, they find another hospital. And as for hospitals stopping offering VBACs, they just started offering them. It used to be, one c-section, all c-sections automatically. The VBAC thing is fairly new here in the US, and not all hospitals allow them because they consider them risky (whether for the patient or the hospital).

An informative VBAC website
http://www.ican-online.org/vbac/home

Um, I’ve had a c-section Laura, three in fact. The first was an emergency which went swimmingly and the second was planned but had a complication. The third though– My hospital let me labor against physician’s advice after I went into labor the day before my scheduled c-section because the L&D floor was understaffed and I was “only five minutes apart” (!) I ended up with a blood transfusion and extensive scar tissue after my incision ruptured, an occurence MUCH more common, though not as deadly, as a full uterine rupture. This was a hospital that did VBACs, for what its worth, and totally unprepared for my emergency.

I am not judging this woman, or any other, for choosing to go the VBAC route. Her body, her choice. However, I am saying this.

1.)The risks of VBAC are real, and the cost and risk of an emergency c-section is much greater than the costs and risks of a planned one.
2.)Again, her right to have a medical procedure does not force her hospital to provide it. I have a right to eat organic food, but Wal-Mart doesn’t have to take the financial risk of buying and stocking it so I can buy it. The hospital has a right to refuse to take this particular legal, financial, and medical risk, and they’ve given her time to make other arrangements. Frankly, if OBs didn’t have exorbitant malpractice insurance costs, it likely wouldn’t be as big an issue, because the pool of OBs would be wider, less risk-averse, and easier for hospitals to find. A good argument for tort reform.

ChiLaura…

Maybe your friend should have switched to a midwife. I go to a hospital midwifery practice at Baylor Dallas that performs VBACs.

ChiLaura – I might be willing to discuss reasonably had she not chosen the word “rape”. That’s ignorant, illogical, inflammatory, and ignoring the medical aspects of the issue at hand (akin to throwing the “race card” with no real reason). She does have the right to choose, BUT that’s just it – she HAS a choice. I did not have a choice to be sexually assaulted. To compare the fact that the hospital doesn’t permit VBAC (which probably has something to do with insurance, staffing, and a few other things – the hospital is probably protecting themselves from a lawsuit) to a violent sexual crime does not make me want to discuss things logically, to say the least.

How many REALLY think tort reform is really the key to getting drs to do more natural births and vbacs? Just wondering. I mean, surgery is taught to these OBs in school, but never natural birth. Midwives do these births now.

Tort reform is a big one, and the biggest about changing hospital policies. Individual docs should work on supporting patients while they labor, offering different labor and pain relief options, etc. but for a case like this, where it’s a hospital spouting about the ACOG and a policy, tort reform capping non-medical awards to plaintiffs would be a big deal. C-sections went up in the last 30years primarily because of suits alleging CP was caused or worsened by birth injury, I think the landmark case was something like a 24million punitive award. Will try to find linky.

I do really think tort reform would really help giving us all more choice. (And I am a liberal democrat.) I personally think that, instead of putting caps on the amount someone can sue for, that there needs to be a jury of experts deciding whether or not the doctor truly was at fault. Today, emotion plays way too big of a role in how juries sway.

People should be free to make decisions for themselves, but with that decision comes responsibility, which I don’t think Americans get. My family is from France, and lawsuits are almost unheard of, which really helps keep health care costs down. Again, there are professional jurists instead of a jury of your peers.

Alicia, you can always be counted on to be the least articulate commenter on any thread.

I get it that a C-section is not rape; I’m not defending this woman in saying that. There *have* been forced C-sections that are much closer to rape in that they are an invasion of a woman’s body; this isn’t exactly the case here. However, presumably there is a certain sense of powerlessness here, which I’m guessing that more than a few of us have experienced with medical providers at one or another time in our lives. I know that I have. I think that the larger issue is that the fact that so many OBs REFUSE to do VBAC’s, despite the evidence that repeat C-sections are at least as dangerous as any given VBAC, if not more so. Whether this is because of liability, or ease for the OB in treating the patient, or whatever, the fact is that many (most?) women who want a VBAC don’t, in fact, have any choice in the matter, for insurance reasons or for lack of OB’s or midwives. (And unless you’ve got tons of extra money just laying around, chances are that you will need to choose a provider covered by insurance rather than being able to go wherever.)

Ina May Gaskin has written about her midwifery practice on The Farm (this sounds almost creepy, but it’s not). They “risk out” at least a few women who come to them, but their VBAC success rate is phenomenal. I can’t recall it off the top of my head, but I do remember that their C-section rate is around 1-2%, which is a far cry from the 30% common nowadays. Yes, some women *need* C-sections, but most don’t, given the support and time to labor that they deserve.

As far as healthy pregnancies go, I think that the medical establishment does not, in fact, serve women’s best interests in general. Too many women are pressured into C-sections, and 30% is way too high of a rate to be considered anywhere near “healthy.” While I’m sure that women who are given unnecessary C-sections ultimately feel that a healthy baby is the most important thing, they do also have a right to sound medical advice and practice, which they’re not getting. Why shouldn’t they feel some resentment?

Mistress_Scorpio – I’m a little late here, I admit, but I just noticed that you wrote that OB’s are never taught natural birth. Is this true? I have never heard this, and I know OB’s still do perform natural births.

First, let me say that I applaud her decision to speak out against her hospital/doc in what she believes to be best for her child. She should take her delivery to another hospital if they cannot provide proper care. Whether or not a VBAC is the best option is not something i am knowledgeable of, so cannot argue. I do however know what it’s like to lose my child to a hospital who would not offer/respond to requests for a c-section, even when the situation called for it. It is difficult to be heard by hospitals/doctors.

However, in my support….I cannot stand that she is using the term RAPE. This cannot be compared to rape. Nothing can. Shame on her.

If I remember correctly, in another article it was stated that that hospital was the only one near her and that, of course, home births weren’t available due to them not being afford with insurance. So, going to another hospital isn’t really an option for her, and home birth may not be either. So while I can see why people are upset about the use the word “rape,” she is being told she has no choice. That she HAS to have a c-section even though she doesn’t need one and has VBAC’ed successfully before. Honestly, without getting into my sad c-section story, I would try to find the money to travel to another hospital or try to find a way to stay home. I know those choices aren’t readily available to many women (so it hurts me to see comments that suggest that it is, and if they can’t just suck it up and get sliced) but I definitely try. A very sad story.

What do I call it when it’s been a year and a half and I still tear up and have trouble talking about my sons birth? Am I a terrible mother becaose I shook with rage and nearly cried when I was forced to see the ob that cut me 6 weeks later? My ONLY THOUGHT DURING THE WHOLE PROCESS WAS GOD PLEASE MAKE THEM STOP. I loved my son immedietly but the page in his baby book describing his birth is simply coverd with tears. I accept that it was neccsary ,but I don’t accept that everytime I have to celebrate his birthday I’m going to have to bite my tounge when I remember the actual day. Birth plan or not, no matter how it happens the mother needs to be respected not cut into while crying hysterically waiting for her husband to get there for her”non- emergency” c-section. Call it birth trauma or birth rape, it’s still scarred me and still effects me.