babble » blogs » Strollerderby
Strollerderby
Homeschooled Kids Smart. School-Schooled Kids Nice.
Two recent pieces, one in Salon and one over at Double X, won’t do much to change how we generally look at American K-12 schools. Neither has anything nice to say about traditional education in the U.S. But we are treated to certain details, from which we induce the following: homeschooled kids learn great things, public school kids learn to be nice.
Let’s start with Salon’s film critic Andrew O’Hehir does. O’Hehir has 5-year-old twins, whose mother will homeschool them starting this year. O’Hehir and his wife get lots of questions about their decision to homeschool, which he answers in his piece, “Confessions of a Homeschooler.”
There are the usual digs at traditional schools, listed on Jezebel in a piece called “Why are Homeschoolers so Annoying?” O’Hehir links to his wife’s blog, where she writes about her days homeschooling, which (warning!) will make you feel pretty bland/negligent if you’re not much on itineraries and frequently let your museum memberships lapse having barely, BARELY, paid for themselves. If you don’t homeschool and have even just a few insecurities about your parenting, you’ll spend a few minutes rocking yourself in the corner wondering how you could send your firstborn into a coliseum of bullies where, while sitting perfectly still for eight hours, The Man will systematically drain every ounce of creativity, enthusiasm and self-thought from her understimulated brain.
Oh well!
At Double X, we get a review of Charles Murray’s Real Education. His main point, writer and educator Diana Senechal explains, is that all kids shouldn’t be encouraged to go to college (could be a fair point, but Murray is also The Bell Curve guy, so it’s hard not to attribute more than to his arguments). Where Senechal focuses in her review, however, is Murray’s observation that schools are too focused on teaching kids to be nice — instituting all kinds of trademarked programs and even incorporating niceness into their schools’ missions. What they’re not teaching the kids to be, he argues, is good. How could they if they’re sanitizing literature so as not to offend anyone and taking with it demonstrations of inner struggles, conflict and change.
Murray says schools are sacrificing opportunities for children to really learn something when kids are forced to work on cooperation through group activities. Senechal illustrates the folly in group learning, which has gotten out of control.
From DoubleX:
That meant abandoning whole-class instruction and focusing on group activities. Teachers were supposed to limit their lessons to 10-15 minutes and leave the rest for group work. Instead of discussing loyalty and jealousy in Hamlet, students might work in groups making predictions about the leveled text assigned to them. It was unlikely that any of the small groups would read Hamlet, as such a work requires more extensive instruction than the workshop format allowed. As a result, children would enter high school without knowing what it means to spend time on a work of literature as a class, with a knowledgeable teacher. They would not know that there were levels of understanding beyond their own.
And then she gets to the heart of the matter, I think, in why I wish families like O’Hehir’s wouldn’t homeschool AND why public schools need help.
Granted, Murray contradicts himself. He affirms that all children can benefit from a rich curriculum, yet he attributes all poor performance to low ability, not vapid instructional programs.
Public schools need O’Hehir’s kids. They need a critical mass of parents who would agree to enroll their kids in the crappy neighborhood school and then refuse to do things like sign reading logs and Kindergarten worksheets and, instead, agree to scheduling time to go into the school and read or play math games.
I wish smart and motivated and available parents like O’Hehir and his wife who are tempted to homeschool would stay in their mind-numbingly boring, creativity draining local schools, meet with the other families, and then invite other kids to go to museums with them. Science fair? Don’t just take over your own kid’s project, take over other kids’ projects too!
It might seem like you’re sacrificing your kids’ future, but come on. Did you learn to read? Your kids will too. Did you learn math up through Calculus? Your kids will too. Did you go to college. Your kids will too! But someone else’s kids could benefit from yours — at school.
And really, it’s not like you can only learn in a homeschool or a school-school. There are, what, 187 school days in the year? Send the kids down the block, undermine the standards-based curriculum (if you think it’s undermining education) by not enforcing useless homework and then do all the homeschool-y stuff after school or those other 178 days (give or take, of course).
I just feel like homeschooling is another way for us to not have to figure out this school thing. It’s a safe way to turn our backs on schools since homeschoolers possibly wouldn’t have a horse in that race.
What do you think about homeschooling? Do you do it? Could you do it? Do you think it will ever influence education policy in the U.S.?
More Posts
Post-Partum Depression Totally Predictable
Expert: Instead of Timeouts, Just Say ‘Yes’
Levar Burton Relieved Reading Rainbow was Canceled
Kraft Cleans Up Mac ‘N’ Cheese — in Europe Only
Shaken Baby Syndrome Impossible?
They Say: Some Formula Makes Kids Smarter!
Last Chance to Name Duggar’s 19th Baby
Preschool Search Nightmare Already Begun
Photo: Salon.com
Go Back To Strollerderby
0 Comments
[...] Homeschooled Kids Smart. School-Schooled Kids Nice. [...]
Midwives Make Plea for Soft Fake Breasts | Strollerderby commented on Sep 30 09 at 11:46 amAlison commented on Sep 29 09 at 8:19 pmWe send our child to a private Montessori school. The same school my parents sent me until they both lost their jobs and decided, in part for financial reasons and in part for the reasons you articulate (other kids would benefit from our knowledge and our kids will still be fine), to send my brother and I to public school. My brother thrived and I drowned. Public schools don’t teach kids to be nice, they teach kids to be obedient within very defined parameters and encourage lack of respect for fellow students and teachers. In theory, I agree that the public schools would be aided with the time and knowledge I give to my son’s school, but is it fair to make my son be the lab rat? It isn’t about his intellectual abilities, it’s about the damage that traditional school does to one’s emotional well-being. Maybe people are choosing to home school because they don’t want to pay for years of therapy down the road and have to tell their children that the pain they suffered was a result of a social experiment.
If I could give every child in America the education that my son receives, I would do it in a heartbeat. But simply sending my child to a traditional public school will not achieve this.
Ali commented on Sep 29 09 at 9:38 pmYour idea to force kids who do not benefit from public school to go anyway to help other kids is ludicrous. I did try to send my child to PS. The teacher used her to teach the other kids and when she got bored and threw and age appropriate, frustration tantrum since she was 3 grades ahead of the other kids, the teacher locked her in the copy room for hours doing the same worksheets over and over. Worksheets about learning your colors even though my child could read at a 3rd grade level. My child began calling herself dumb, stopped eating, became depressed and oppositional. When I found out about the copy room I pulled her out of school. When I asked to have her accelerated they said no. This is one of the best school systems in our region of the country, just won a huge federal award. Should we force our bright kids to suffer emotionally and be bored all day, to spend all day unchallenged and learning nothing so they can help the average kid or kids who are in bad schools? No. A child needs to learn appropriate to their ability, to deny them is cruel. I wont sacrifice my child sanity and future for someone elses kid. I quit work adn we do with less to stay home with my kids so they can get a good education. We have already made our sacrifice. Bright children are a pain in the ass to our schools. They want their test scores but wont provide curriculum or programs for them. They want them to sit still and shut up. My daughter is now 6 years old and would have been just entering 1st grade this year. Today she read Nancy Drew, talked about cells, covered the Transition Metals on the Periodic table, talked about synonyms, did a bit of 2nd grade math, she illustrated and wrote a simple book about a pet shop, discussed a book about ancient Africa and read about the colonists and how they lived in early American settlements. No workbooks, no worksheets and my full attention. We were done by 1 pm and went outside to play. Did I mention this child is in a wheelchair? As for public school one size does not fit all. All the schools are the same with the same curriculum. There is not place for the child who is different.
Ali commented on Sep 30 09 at 12:48 amOh and as for getting parents to “go down to the school and play math games” you can forget that. Many of the schools here dont even allow the parents into the classrooms. It is up to individual principals if the parents can participate and how much. It isup to the teacher and the system what you are allowed to do with the children or teach them. They dont want parents there except to raise money and volunteer for parties. I tried to get more involved. I was told no by two different schools for two different kids. Your ideas are sweet but not realistic.
Anonimon commented on Sep 30 09 at 7:29 amI hardly even know where to begin. The premise of this article seems to be that the “good and creative” parents should do the work of raising, enriching, and educating the “bad and lazy” parents’ children. And that they should do it for free, unlike the paid teacher that has years of training (homeschoolers always hear about our lack of training) and complete control over the class schedule. Thanks, but I’ll pass.
During her last year of “tradition school,” my daughter scored in the 26% in math. After one year of homeschooling, she raised her score to the 65%. My son, who has been homeschooled from Kindergarten, scores in the 99% in Math and the 90% in Language Arts. I have no doubts that my kids are receiving a great education at home.
As far as parents being involved so that a rising tide can lift all boats, it sounds nice in theory, but it is a rare teacher and an even rarer School Board that will allow parents to have much input in to how or what a child is taught in school. Last year a group of very dedicated and involved parents, exactly the type this article implies should be involved, fought for over a year to have the newly purchased math curriculum changed or to have the old curriculum offered as an alternative should parents choose that for their child. Time and time again they were essentially told, “We are the experts when it comes to your child. Please just drop them off at the schoolhouse door and let us take care of the rest.” How many of those parents will feel welcome to participate again?
Homeschooling is not for everyone, but neither is traditional schooling. Schools do seem to be becoming conformity factories and this applies to parent involvement as well. If you want to help decorate the classroom door for Halloween, come on in. If you want to have a voice in how your child is taught, hold your horses there bucko. Those who think public school is best should not complain that more and more “involved” parents are pulling their children out of schools until they are willing to ask why without blaming those same parents.
Twintown commented on Sep 30 09 at 9:47 amI’m really surprised at some of the comments. Parents aren’t allowed in classrooms? In our ps, we receive a monthly calendar asking for parents to pick a time they can come in and help. We get reminders in every Friday folder also. In the classroom, I read with small groups of students, do science projects with them, and grade papers – not decorate bulletin boards. This is pretty common for all of the public school systems I’m familiar with here.
I considered home-schooling and still don’t rule it out. My dh – a school administrator – is opposed to it for obvious reasons. Also, he had a great ps experience. He was a good student and a great athlete. I hated school. I was an excellent student, but was very quiet and shy. This makes me wonder how many of us are actually projecting our own school experiences on our kids. Just because I was bored at school doesn’t mean my children will be as well. Different personalities factor a lot into it, as well as different teachers.
@Ali, I totally disagree that “all schools are the same with the same curriculum”. My 6yo twins are in different classrooms. They were placed in the rooms they’re in based on compatibility suggestions from their kindergarten teacher. So far, she has been absolutely right in her recommendations. The same material is presented very differently between the two rooms because of the teachers’ different teaching styles, and it is really amazing to see how each of them thrive where they are.
Finally, I just have to say that even having this conversation is a luxury we are taking for granted. Millions of people in this country simply don’t have the option to opt out and do their own thing. What about those kids? It’s all well and good to say, “Well, at least MY kid won’t suffer!”, but at some point we’ll have to widen our boxes. We already have generations of children who have been poorly educated, and are dealing with the aftermath of that. Pretending that our kids won’t be impacted by that at some point in their lives also does a disservice to them. We have an obligation to help make schools viable for everyone. Visit a public school as a prospective family. Talk to the teachers about what they see as the challenges. They’re the ones in the trenches, not us. Schedule an appointment with the principal. Find out what they have control over and what are marching orders from the superintendent’s office. Go to school board meetings. Find out about school board candidates and vote accordingly. Don’t get your information from your friend’s neighbor whose hair stylist told her that the public school is out of control. Don’t pass it on. We all have a hand in making schools what they are, whether we want to admit it or not.
Alison commented on Sep 30 09 at 11:09 amTwintown is absolutely right that millions of people have no alternatives for schools. But I disagree that the way we should deal with this is by demanding that people who do have alternatives send their children to the underperforming schools. That is like saying that some people have no alternatives but to live in dangerous neighborhoods, so we should all move to dangerous neighborhoods because we can improve the neighborhoods. Sounds nice in theory, but in fact, it doesn’t quite work that way. No one suggests that their children won’t be impacted by the schools which don’t educate, just as no one believes they can insulate themselves in their neighborhoods and remain untouched by the violence that exists in the world. But forcing our children to suffer in underperforming schools which are more interested in teaching children to obey than to learn in order to make a political point doesn’t seem fair.
jenny tries too hard commented on Sep 30 09 at 11:28 amWith all the comments about alternatives, do I even have to mention my favorite word? *whispers* vouchers….
Twintown commented on Sep 30 09 at 12:41 pmAlison, we certainly agree on the problem, and I think we agree on the goal, but differ on the how to get there. I don’t hear anyone “demanding” that people with choices send their kids to underperforming schools. Rather, consider the alternatives and what we, as individuals, can do. For example: if employment is flexible, can you volunteer in a public school twice a week? I do that in our school and sometimes just end up shelving books in the library. The librarian uses that freed-up time to help individual students pick out books equal to their skill level rather than turning them loose to pick up whatever cover looks interesting. That child gets some one-on-one attention as well as a book that the librarian thinks will challenge him/her without being too hard. Small choice, big impact.
While your analogy has everyone moving to dangerous neighborhoods, I see opting out of the educational system as everyone building higher gates around themselves, protecting only the ones they love and forget everyone else. I’m torn here, too, between wanting the elusive “best” for my kids (which I consider to be me as their teacher!) and feeling an obligation to other kids who aren’t as fortunate as mine are just by luck of the draw.
It just seems that schools are an easy target (everyone hates them, right?!) and people complain endlessly without actually DOING anything about it. It might be a little inconvenient or I might have to have messy conversations with my kids about why so-and-so in their class gets free breakfast at school while we eat at home, etc. I’m hoping that it gets my kids – and me – outside of ourselves and thinking beyone what benefits us.
Twintown commented on Sep 30 09 at 12:45 pmThat should be “…beyond what benefits us.” oh, and vouchers = great! We recently passed a law that any child can go to any public school, including township schools, for no fee. There is no transportation provided, but other than that, you are now free to roam about the school system:) Fortunately, our home school is fab, but I have several friends taking advantage of the new system.
Lorraine commented on Sep 30 09 at 12:45 pmAccording to several studies, being well-liked (ie: nice) among colleagues and higher-ups is more important in terms of getting ahead than actual competence in today’s professional world.
ChiLaura commented on Sep 30 09 at 4:41 pmJust curious if Ms Holler has actually read “The Bell Curve,” or anything else that Charles Murray has written?
While I do sympathize with the view that of those who are given “more,” more is required, I think that Ms Holler’s vision of how this works out is dreadfully idealistic. How does it make sense to put one’s child into a shitty school and expect them to be able to live up to their potential (let’s assume average or above average intelligence here)? Send your kids to public school by day, have them waste hours on things that bore them, or on learning how to stand in line, or watching classmates be disciplined, then what? Teach them in the evening, after they’re exhausted and crabby? A shitty public school may succeed in teaching my child how to read, but it’s not going to discuss good literature or learn about math thru baking or learn about biology thru gardening when the teacher is dealing with 25 other kids, many of whom have behavioral problems. That’s expecting way too much. Most parents now expect, either consciously or sub-consciously, schools to raise and “socialize” their kids, and schools, teachers and other kids bare the brunt of this.
I know that there are many reasons why I don’t want my kids in any of our urban public schools. One is that my (over?)active kid would almost undoubtedly be getting into trouble daily because he’s too chatty and busy. Two is that I don’t want him learning about violent movies, swear words, commercial culture and the like from “those boys” in his class; I certainly don’t want him thinking that those are “the cool things.” Three is that, well, I just like having him around, and he likes to be here. Going to parks classes and friends’ houses a couple times a week is overwhelming enough for him; I shudder to think what Pre-K would be like. Ms Holler seems to assume that all of us who don’t want to send our kids to public school are selfish people who don’t care about anyone else. That’s not true. BUT, I’m not ashamed to admit that I care about MY kid MORE than other people’s kids, and it is not my responsibility to make sure that others are raising their kids right, or that the government is teaching kids with the best means possible. From what I’ve read, a lot of people homeschool because they know firsthand what a stifling experience public school can be, and they wouldn’t wish that upon their own kid. I’m certainly not against public school for others, and I would willingly send my kids to a public school assuming that it met my childrens’ needs well and better than I could. If Ms Holler and others don’t mind hearing from their kids some day, “Excuse me, Mom? You sent me to a terrible school for the sake of your own ideals when it wasn’t our only option?”, good on her. I, for one, never want to hear that, nor am I willing to. I actually wonder “what could’ve been” if I had been in a different academic environment. I have no bitterness, as I made do with what I had and managed to earn a master’s, but I can’t help but wonder what would’ve happened if I *hadn’t* had to have dropped out of chemistry and the biology/pre-med track in college because my public school-provided math background was so shitty. I don’t blame my parents, but I don’t want my kids to wonder the same thing some day.
jenny tries too hard commented on Sep 30 09 at 4:47 pmYes, I wondered if Madeline had read any of Murray’s work myself…many of his critics actually haven’t bothered to read him, or to pick apart his data.
Madeline Holler commented on Sep 30 09 at 5:04 pmWell, of course I’m being idealistic — I was proposing a revolution!
But seriously, my point boiled down the fact that kids don’t just learn from teachers, they learn from other kids. But if kids like O’Hehir’s all pull out of public schools, then it diminishes a very important component of teaching/learning.
Plus, if enough O’Hehirs would actually stay in the crappy schools, it wouldn’t be one parent against the teacher/administrator/district, it would be many. Some schools get away with a lot because nobody’s holding them accountable.
I think as a society, we hold so dear the possibility of sending our kids off to Harvard, that we worry about what their records will look like for college admissions. But if you as a parent think homework is a waste, don’t make your first-grader do it. If they’re getting a shitty math education, hire a tutor — and complain! There are many other parents like you out there. Find others in the school and speak out.
I’m not saying it’s easy. And I’m not saying your kids will thank you. But it might not be that hard. And maybe they will.
I mean, our kids are being looked out for, right (we’re bothering to read and write about this), but how many others aren’t (and who cares why? So what if their parents are lazy? Or illiterate? Or working many jobs?)
The O’Hehirs and the Alis and the ChiLauras and the Twintowns and the Madeline Hollers have to share our brains, time, energy and privilege beyond the scope of our own families.
BlackOrchid commented on Sep 30 09 at 5:37 pmThe author of this essay is far too quick to take ownership of the personal resources of others, in her comment. The first few comments here were excellent, by the way, I really enjoyed reading them.
And no one actually READS Charles Murray, Jenny, other than you and I! Would that they would do so.
I currently have two children in two different schools, based on their individual personalities/needs and it’s working out so far for both of them, and we plan to re-evaluate at the middle-school level. I am one of those who is impressed and amazed by home-schoolers — I wish I could do what they do. Kudos to them!
jenny tries too hard commented on Sep 30 09 at 6:23 pmI’m a little annoyed with the whole concept of noblesse oblige that you seem to be espousing Madeline….the job of Ali’s daughter, for example, is not to slog through already learned material for the benefit of Ali’s neighbor’s children–it is to develop her abilities so that she will become a productive member of a society as an adult. Then, will she grows up, she will have her true contribution to society as a writer or a doctor or whatever else she may be. As far as “holding schools accountable” that’s why I say (a little louder this time) Vouchers! The best way to hold any entity accountable for its performance is to thrust it into competitition. The parents who are lazy fail their children, yes. We should stress the concept of personal responsibility more and, yes, volunteer through mentoring programs and just helping kids in your community who might not be getting their educational needs met at home. Expecting that the very presence of our bright, well-brought children and our volunteering in the classroom (when hyper-cautious schools even let you in) will somehow lift up our neigbors seems just a touch arrogant and very unlikely.
jenny tries too hard commented on Sep 30 09 at 6:29 pmyikes, typos…sorry!
ChiLaura commented on Sep 30 09 at 9:25 pmAmen, Jenny, to everything you said.
I’m curious if Ms Holler would also suggest that those of us with insurance should go without in solidarity with those who don’t have it? If those of us (actually, I’m not one at this point in my life!) who can take our kids to Europe should just stay here because it’s not something that everyone can do? Shoot, maybe I should join the workforce and drop my kids off at daycare, even though I think that this is *not* my childrens’ best option, because some parents actually *have* to work and can’t stay home with their kids, as I’m privileged to be able to do? Nobody should be rich either, because there are a lot of poor people? There’s tone in Ms Holler’s post, and it is especially evident in the linked Jezebel post, that “if not everyone can do, then no one should.” On Jezebel, it totally sounds like sour grapes. While I think that it’s wonderful, and, perhaps to a certain extent, our “duty” to try to take care of other people as much as possible, Ms Holler seems to advocate abandoning a sea-worthy vessel for a sinking one, and letting our kids go down with it.
I don’t actually care about my kids getting into Harvard. Elder son told me today that he wants to be a baker when he grows up, and I just thought, “Yum.” Again, I think that the point of the O’Hehir article that Ms Holler is missing is that public school actually *stifles* many childrens’ fairly natural love of learning, replacing it with boredom and negativity towards anything academic. I can’t understand why anyone would think that it’s okay to do this to their kids for the sake of their own ideals. If I decided to spend all my time earning money, because money is great, and I neglected my child’s emotional needs, I’d be in big trouble. Because the perception (and that’s all that it is) here, though, is that somehow people who opt-in to bad public schools are serving a greater altruistic good, (potentially) neglecting one’s child’s intellectual needs is excused.
Shelley Abreu commented on Oct 01 09 at 10:58 amMadeline, thanks for this post. I was feeling the same way and I wrote about the O’Hehir piece on my blog as well. And I wrote a piece for Babble defending public Kindergarten. Check them out if you want.
My blog: http://www.shelleyabreu.com/2009/09/one-stereotype-leads-to-another.html
Babble essay:http://www.babble.com/Love-Kindergarten-child-doesnt-mind/
sdmom22 commented on Oct 02 09 at 12:45 amFirst, no one “should” do one or the other. But, from personal experience, life is not as simple as book smarts. Dealing with bully’s, group projects, social stigma; these all “real” life experiences. I’m not saying a Homeschoolers can’t get that experience, but it’s less often. And how do they get it, anyway? There is nothing like the school playground, the lunchroom, the hardcore things that occur in school that one remembers. Conflict resolution. Now that is huge in life. HUGE! But even beyond that, I do think we, as parents, owe it to our community to do more for our kids than just be a parent. We need to teach, share our knowledge and help those that don’t have such devoted parents or parents that work two and three jobs to support the family. A selfish people we’ve become. It doesn’t have to be a sacrifice of one’s own child. You speak as if you yourself are in Kindergarten. The world is not so black and white.
Dee commented on Apr 18 10 at 1:51 pmIt sounds like Ms Holler wants the good to be accountable to the bad, but the bad not accountable to the good. If I shouldn’t pull my bright, gifted and talented son out of school because I volunteer and am involved in the goings on that ‘benefit’ the school just because I might make a difference and counteract the 30 parents I see who treat the school as day care then no thank you! It’s not my son’s job to provide an example to the other kids on how to be or my job to provide an example for the parents on how to act. I’ve been O’Hehir in the public school system and it is the most disheartening experience I have ever gone through. The more involved, the more my son suffers the consequences.
Ms Holler: I’m sorry you have such a poor view of homeschooling -but I am not homeschooling my son to make you look bad or feel bad. It’s your choice to feel whatever way you want to so, just like you say that parent’s shouldn’t project their views of school onto their children, YOU shouldn’t reflect your views of parenting onto other parents.
GuruSantiago commented on Aug 10 10 at 9:51 amHello,
I am GuruSantiago . My website ElectronicsIsFun has a special section Just for Kids. Here, the kids will have an opportunity to learn electronics in a fun new way.
The Guru will provide guidance and tutorials along with videos and other materials that will help make Electronics Fun. The kids will enjoy using the Snap Circuits Jr. Kit to learn electronics because it is just as simple as assembling Lego bricks.
I encourage you and your kids to visit and learn how much fun you can have learning electronics.
Thank You,
GuruSantiagoWant to learn more about electronics?
The GuruSantiago can help. Checkout his videos here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ElectronicsIsFun
http://www.ElectronicsIsFun.com
And follow him on twitter @ElectronicsFun
Add your take:
Note: Babble is a supportive, diverse community. We encourage a range of opinions,
but any unduly hostile comments will be removed.
Comments are delayed up to 15 minutes
Lori Garcia 
Joslyn Gray 
Amber Doty 
Julianna Miner 
Monica Bielanko 
Sierra Black 
Meredith Carroll 
Carolyn Castiglia 
Sunny Chanel 
Madeline Holler 
Rebecca Odes 
Danielle Smith 
Danielle Sullivan 
Katherine Stone 
The Walt Disney Company supports Babble as a platform dedicated to honest, engaged, informed, intelligent and open conversation about parenting. However, the opinions expressed on this site are those of individual parents/writers and do not reflect the views of Disney. In addition, content provided on this site is for entertainment or informational purposes only and should not be construed as medical advice, diagnosis, treatment, or safety advice.
0