Judge Won’t Protect Kids from the Gays

[...] See Also: Judge Won’t Protect Kids from the Gays [...]

[...] been a lively debate going on over at my post about a judge who ruled that a man’s children couldn’t be “exposed” to his gay friends. [...]

Brava! I couldn’t agree more! It is as ridiculous as saying exposure to my Asian-ness will influence a child to be more Asian or become Asian!

I would be mad if my husband wanted to expose my children to a gay lifestyle. The judgement according to your quotes was that the children could not be around his partner or gay friends. I would imagine standing near a gay person would not apply to the ruling. If the father only has limited time with the kids and (I am assuming) at one point both parents expressed the way they wanted to raise the children away from a gay community, then I feel the mother is right on this one. I will agree, however, it would be impossible to uphold.

Lets change a few words:
“I don’t want my children exposed to a black lifestyle”
“I don’t want my children exposed to a Hispanic lifestyle”
“I don’t want my children exposed to a Native American lifestyle”
“I don’t want my children exposed to an Asian lifestyle”

Don’t those sound prejudiced, silly, and outright dumb?

You could even argue that in this case, the “gay lifestyle” is how Dad behaves around his friends. But at the same time, that’s a moot point because I’m willing to bet that there are hetero single parents who misbehave with their hetero friends/partners (case in point - best friend’s exhubster (he’s 40) moved his 19 yo girlfriend into his basement apt at his parents’ house. The kids have caught them (Dad and gf) having sex after being dropped off at their Dad’s place. Maybe my friend shouldn’t allow her children to be exposed to a “hetero lifestyle”.)

The very idea of a father being unable to be with his partner, his friends, and his children at the same time is insane. If the judge ruled that this should be so, that judge is not just a bad judge, but a bad person.

I’m backing Twyla on this one (big surprise). Vivian, PlumbLucky, Angi, you’re all wrong: “Asian-ness,” or being black, Hispanic, etc are all attributes: One is born with them and they are impossible to change (except, apparently, in the case of Michael Jackson). Even if one is born with a homosexual orientation, which I don’t necessarily dispute, a “gay lifestyle” is a *behavior.* Neither of the linked articles mentions it, but I can’t help but wonder if couple was Christian or something, in which the gay lifestyle (not necessarily gayness itself!) is considered sinful. It’s very possible that both parents had talked about their shared morals, and “protecting our children as much as possible from the normalization of homosexuality” was one of these. Imagine, dear liberals, that one of *your* shared values with your spouse was “we think that Christians preach hate and we’re going to protect our kids from that.” Then all of a sudden, your spouse converts to the strictest Baptist denomination and starts preaching hate! Wouldn’t you be a little ticked? Might you not possibly take a legal route to insure that your children wouldn’t be exposed to such a lifestyle? Acting as an intolerant Baptist is a behavior; acting in a homosexual manner is a behavior. One CAN control behaviors, if not proclivites. Isn’t this what rehabilitation is all about? (i.e. many people believe that criminals or alcoholics or whatever can be re-habbed) I don’t think that the mere fact that one’s father is gay should sever the father-child relationship. However, I would argue that there is some sort of marriage-contractual obligation on the part of this father to stand by the morality he presumable agreed to (though didn’t necessarily live by, and almost certainly lied about) while he was married to this woman for 21 years and raising four children. Doesn’t anyone have a little sympathy for this woman who gave up 21+ years and four births for a lie? I do.

Just the fact that you think rehabilitation is called for to stop people from living a “gay lifestyle” is so offensive. I wish there was rehab for people who think the way you do, and that you would attend.

Sorry ChiLaura, but you can’t play the Christian card with this. I grew up Baptist and no one in my church ever preached hate of anyone. Ever. Period. My parents are still Baptists and their preacher is adamantly supportive of gay people and their families, mine included, when we visit.

Now I’m still a Christian of a different denomination from my raising, my children attend Sunday School every week and our minister is himself, a gay man in a 20-year relationship. Next weekend, my church is leading a group in the Pride Parade. Do come and wish my family well.

God bless you dear.

Shannon, no particular offense intended towards Baptists. I did at least preface “Baptists” in my initial post with “strictest.” It was an example, and the Southern Baptists are so often in the news for a variety of things that it seemed rather apt. I could’ve just as easily have said “Catholic,” “Evangelical” or “Muslim.” I don’t think that the particular represents the entire spectrum. There are a number of people in my own parish with vastly different views on a variety of things. I would never claim that any one person represents my parish any more than a given branch of Christians (or any other religion!) represents the whole thing.

Introduce my children to my husband’s gay-and-living-with-his-partner boss, who’s quite the charming and child-friendly man? Absolutely, already done. Bring my children to a Pride Parade? I’ve seen enough of the Pride Parades here in Chicago, and their in-your-face sexuality makes me sick to my stomach, just like Mardi Gras does. (I’m actually a little surprised you’d bring your kids? Maybe it’s a family-friendly one?) Your family wouldn’t make me sick to my stomach, btw, though clearly we have our differences. My husband’s gay boss wouldn’t be caught dead at the Pride Parades either, and he’s gay. Clearly, not everyone who refuses to attend is a gay-hating bigot.

Jeanne: You’re fairly unimaginative, aren’t you? The “behavior” would be any sexual behavior: flirting, hand-holding, kissing, etc. Neither have I met any gays who are trying to have gay sex in front of my kids, but I have seen plenty of gays holding hands and kissing on the street. No, just “being” is not a problem, but I wouldn’t invite the potential for sexual behavior, gay or hetero, into my house. “Being” is not “behaving.” Was that so hard? Read a bit more carefully.

I’m not even going to get into the rehabilitation comment, as I have no particular views on this subject. I made it perfectly clear above that I was not referring to “rehabbing gays.” May I quote from my second post?: “I didn’t talk about rehab for gays, I simply said that one can control his or her behavior: case in point, rehab, in which one who has engaged in particular behaviors is thought to be able to learn to control what was previously out-of-control.”

And again, regarding the woman in the case: Presumably her husband also classified gays as “bad” (though he was gutless enough to lie while doing so), so how is it that her entire world has just been turned upside down, yet she’s the one to blame?

How nice for me, then, that I live where everyone is either a modest Hispanic who would never make out on the street corner, or just old and married and has no need to prove anything about their sexuality. Ain’t Chicago grand.

We think everyone at the beach is a slut. That’s why we don’t go.

That was a joke. Get it?

ChiLaura said,

“Imagine, dear liberals, that one of *your* shared values with your spouse was ‘we think that Christians preach hate and we’re going to protect our kids from that.’”

Are you trying to perpetuate this stereotype? Because you’re doing a bang up job.

I do feel badly for the woman who was married to someone for that long, and it turned out the marriage was based on pretense. However, I don’t think that gives her the right - and certainly doesn’t give a judge the right! - to request that the life the EX-husband now leads keep him away from his kids. If he were involved in something illegal, sure…but just having gay friends, or a being in a gay relationship? Puh-leez. I do love how Chi Laura jumps to the conclusion that it is a “parade” of gay sexual partners that is turning the EX-wife off (I keep putting “ex” in caps, because HEY, “ex” means it is no longer your business, anyway)…lol! How do we know it isn’t ONE gay sexual partner? Is that any different than if the man had ONE girlfriend whom his children occasionally spent time with? And if it were a parade of sexual partners, gay OR straight, it is morally questionable, but still not grounds for the law to step in and stop him spending time with his kids. And specifically to your last post, Chi Laura…actually, my spouse and I do have a shared value which could be considered intolerant of (I want to be specific here) fundamentalist, gay-hating, bigoted, far-right-wing, woman-hating, pro-life preaching, oppressively dictatorial, militantly Conservative Christians who love nothing more than to outline daily how just about everyone in the world is going to hell except for them and a few people who go to their church. We think that their “lifestyle” is disgusting, morally reprehensible, and potentially harmful to children. However, they ARE my parents…and we will happily let them spend as much time with their grandkids as they want. Know why? Because even more than I hope my kids grow up loving gay people, fighting for the underdog and under-represented, marching with pro-choice signs at rallies when they get the chance, and otherwise becoming liberal in their social views…yeah, even MORE than that, I hope they spew tolerance from every pore, for everybody, including people like my parents. I hope they learn that there are many other people in the world who have their very own ideas, and they don’t always match Mom and Dad’s…and that it is OKAY to love them anyway.

“Pretending that this situation is simplistically reversible and the “other side” needs “fair” representation is just plain disingenuous.”

Exactly!

puasamanda: I do appreciate the fact that you at least engaged me on the issues at hand here, at least more than anyone else did. You talk about your parents, which I think is at least akin to my hypothesized situation involving a gay babysitter. I wonder how far your tolerance extends? Do you let your parents engage in anti-gay or anti-abortion talk in front of your children? Especially when you’re not around? I’d guess that you’d probably draw the line somewhere; if not, I think that’s somewhat surprising. I have my own disagreements with my parents, and while I don’t limit their time with their grandkids, I have asked them before to refrain from doing or saying certain things in front of my kids. Isn’t setting limits part of what being a parent is about? And keep in mind that we’re not talking about grandparents here. We’re talking about the children’s very own father, who presumably has a lot more influence over them. It would be as if your husband turned into an intellecutal clone of your parents and tried to actually teach your kids that *this* was the right way to live. Presumably, you might also then try to limit your children’s exposure to your husband’s new lifestyle. Maybe I’m wrong. Also, I talked about more than one sexual partner in the case of this man because one of the linked articles refers to the “father’s gay partners and friends.” Plural. You’re right, presumably that does mean no more than two, which is not a “parade” (and I don’t think that I used that word, btw). It does, however, imply two or more partners and any number of friends. Finally, I will reiterate my point that, assuming that this was a couple with certain moral standards who had discussed them sometime in their 21 years of marriage (in this case, specifically that the gay lifestyle is not one they condone), it does seem that there is some obligation on the part of the partner who broke trust and broke vows to stand by what he’d said for the past two decades: in this case, he should at least limit on his own accord the partners and friends with whom his kids come in contact. It seems to me that this man needs to, well, man up, and keep his vows to his wife as much as possible. And yes, I realize that it’s possible that they were a liberal couple who supported gay rights, the wife simply became completely embittered and is now out to get her husband. In which case, I would say, “Grow up, lady.” My initial post was simply a speculation on what *might have* transpired, and how the situation isn’t necessarily black and white.

Shannon: I have only discussed this particular situation in these posts; you have expanded the scope by a huge factor. I don’t expect you to remember ever single comment I leave, but the two of us did in fact have an exchange a while back (in response to a post you(?) wrote regarding a custody battle between a gay couple) in which I said that I thought this was a terrible and ridiculous situation. I said that in order to prevent it, I fully supported the dissolution of “marriage” as a legal matter in place of “civil unions” for all, gay and straight. I said that I thought that marriage is a matter for the church only; a given church can decide who can or cannot get married. That way everyone has the same protection under the law (custody, hospital visits, etc.) and we keep that nice little wall between church and state. You agreed with me on this. Again, I don’t necessarily expect you to remember this exchange, and maybe because we’re talking about a homosexual man versus a heterosexual woman the problems you mentioned above would remain (i.e. courts favoring the heterosexual partner). However, in no way have my comments above contained blanket statments about what the courts should or should not do. I’ve confined my comments to this situation, in which apparently the “other” side does actually need some representation or sympathy, at least in this forum. That’s it. Also, my “crime against nature” (mixed-race) kids and my (biracial) husband and I have our own crosses to bear in life; everyone does. I have sympathy for your situation, with your kids having no or very few positive role models or look-alike families in their lives, and I’m sure you have it “worse” than we do. But your point seems to be a red herring. Finally, you write: “for those of you who think gay people should repress their true selves and live a lie–try that on yourself.” No one forced this guy to do anything, so far as I know. And aren’t we supposed to have respect and admiration for people who live by “who they are” in the face of opposition, not to those who lie about it? No one forced this husband to do anything, as far as I can tell from the article. I do have some degree of respect for the fact that he finally was honest about his sexuality, but that doesn’t give him a free pass to do whatever he wants, or, as I said, to renounce everything for which he claimed to have stood before. Again, I’d argue that 21 years of shared morality with his wife obliges him to stand by it to the best of his ability, especially in the case of minor children.

I’m simply astounded by the apparent lack of commenters here to engage on the issue at hand. It’s as if you either can’t or simply refuse to read what I’ve written and to talk about that. I would have a lot more respect for many of you if you would simply say: “We understand the distinction between attribute and behavior, but we don’t think that it matters. Anything that might limit the homosexual love of this man in front of his children is barbaric and backwards.” Fine. At least then our positions are clear. My initial post was polite and I thought at least a decently articulate. Granted, I got more snippy as the argument went on, but never once did I say anything that would imply that gays are less than human or don’t deserve to see their kids or anything like that. (In fact, in my first post, I wrote: “I don’t think that the mere fact that one’s father is gay should sever the father-child relationship”!) If the “anti-” responders here are interested in having an actual discussion of ideas, it would probably help if you discussed “ideas” and tried to gain some understanding of the other side rather than being condescending (Shannon, naive me, I didn’t realize how condescending your initial response was until I saw your follow up ones! Silly me!) and simply shutting down discussion with the insult “disgusting.” You speak of conservatives being intolerant? Look in the mirror. This series of posts has taught me little more than, “Many are not interested in discussing anything, but only in proselytizing.” It’s also taught me that Strollerderby can be very bad for the soul.

Thanks, ChiLaura, I wrote down the title and will try to find time in my schedule to read it. I agree I have never seen such intolerance until I decided to open my mind to see why liberals think what they do. It is sad how mean they can be to another opinion. Oh well, their blog their rules, eh?

ChiLaura, Twyla: I think what troubles me, the liberal facist, is that neither of you can answer for us what exactly is so bad about gay people. What exactly are you trying to protect your kids from? If you know your kids aren’t going to “catch” homosexuality, then what is it that worries you so much?

We’re not being nasty or intolerant because we disagree with you - we’re asking for an answer that you’re conveniently sidestepping.

Jeanne- I do not “protect” my kids from homosexuality. I couldn’t if I tried. I do allow my kids to leave the house and watch t.v. I don’t know how anyone could not know about sexuality in this day and age. My husband’s aunt and partner are very important and special to my children. We make it a point to visit them whenever they are in town. We talk about them with our kids all the time. Just like the kids’ aunts that are married to uncles, we don’t discuss their bedroom behavior. None of the adults in our family are PDA type folks.
The reason I side with this woman is because the parents are the child’s biggest influence. We are talking about a parent displaying in front of the kids a lifestyle that we are assuming was one the parents were not going to introduce to the children prior to the divorce.
I do not think that gay people are bad. I try my hardest to live by the morals the Bible clearly teaches. I have moral issue with homosexuality. I do not have moral issue with homosexuals. It is very different. You may not care for my evangelical upbringing but I would hope you don’t feel that all evangelicals are bad or the same, right? I will never be the one holding a sign against anyone. I will never crowd the street or block the abortion clinic with my protest. My feelings and opinions are mine. The only reason I share them here is because that is what this blog is about. Or at least that is what I thought. I have heard some very good arguments on many of these articles. I like to know why someone believes what they do. I don’t think I will change any of my positions but I feel that I am more understanding of others’ opinions. I hope the same is true for the people who don’t agree with me. Instead of deciding who I am and what I believe, listen. Know that I think differently. I do not/have not ever come from a postition of hate. I won’t. My customers at work that are gay will never know how I feel about it. Because I don’t feel ill towards them. I really like them. They are neat people. They are good people.
I hope that answers your question. I am not trying to side-step any questions.

Tom- Just in case curiousity gets to you and you do check back please read what we have written. You are argueing a lot of points that have not come up in these comments. We have never made jokes about gay people, said they are bad or tainting people, or tried to hurt anyone’s feelings. I would be very pleased to have any qualified doctor, be he gay, straight, short, tall, fat or thin, work on me or my family. ChiLaura and I were responding to the article not society in general. Then we got into some dialogue with bloggers from the sight.
I am sorry that you were offended by our disagreeing with some of your opinions. I know that I never intended to hurt anyone’s feelings.

ChiLaura, I’m sorry that I haven’t gotten a chance to respond. Little thing about my husband celebrating Father’s Day and all.

As for a response, the problem seems to come down to the fact that you believe the Bible says homosexuality is immoral. And yet for all that you guys say you read “the real Bible,” there is no such thing. I came from a Catholic household. We had a different Bible and a different interpretation than my Assemblies of God raised friend, who had a different interpretation from that of his Episcopalian grandparents and so on.

I read the Bible to see a loving God, a God who creates “man” in his image. I read the Bible as a God of love. And therefore, I read the Bible as being supportive of homosexuality, or at the very least - apathetic about it.

No, I don’t see what you’re saying her ChiLaura. I think you are making excuses for a woman based on perceived morality when the true morals of life are based on acceptance and love rather than hate and judgment. Am I judging you here, yes, I’m sorry, I am.

But I don’t believe you can defend a woman’s prejudice simply because it exists. She doesn’t get to hold on to it simply because it’s something she and her husband agreed on years ago. It’s called personal growth. Thank goodness as human beings we can realize our wrongs and change.

Saying you don’t “hate” gays out of one side of your mouth is fine, as long as you don’t say out of the other side “but they’re sinful and shouldn’t be afforded the same rights as everyone else.” Because, Twyla, it is society as a whole you’re referring to. You can’t agree that one person can be homophobic and not think that homophobia is OK.

Okay, my turn. ChiLaura, these are your words:

“Doesn’t anyone have a little sympathy for this woman who gave up 21+ years and four births for a lie?”

Indeed, ChiLaura, this guy tried to not act gay and the results were very hurtful. Yet you also said,

“acting in a homosexual manner is a behavior. One CAN control behaviors”

So by controlling his homosexual behavior, this man led a life that was a lie and many people got hurt as a result. So which is it? Hide your gayness and hurt people or openly embrace your gayness and offend you? I think you’ve put a lot of time and thought into your responses here, and I thank you for the lively debate. I just don’t think you’ve decided yet how you really feel because your statements fundamental contradict one another. It’s a complex issue and you clearly have complex feelings on the subject. If we can look past the attack-defend tone of this discuss for a second, you might see that this is a good opportunity for one to work out their thoughts. Often we think something in our head, but once we say it out loud we realize it doesn’t make sense. Happens to me all the time. And in rectifying the conflicts messages in our heads we find acceptance.

And yes, I’m damn proud of everything Jeanne, Shannon and I have said here. 100%.

I wish straight people would stop flaunting their marriages, wearing rings, calling each other wife and husband (and worse, Mrs. and Mr.) in public, posting their wedding photos on their mantles . . . I find it immoral. I mean, what am I supposed to tell my children?

Shannon- I agree completely. I am so tired of the “hate the sin but love the sinner” crap. No one gets to compartmentalize my life like that. It’s just watered down homophobia masked in a way that makes people feel less hateful than they actually are.

Twyla and ChiLaura, I feel like there’s a tone of “oh, poor me” in your posts. It’s so hard to be conservative when these liberals are so close-minded. I find it to be frustrating. In the U.S. today gay people can be fired, kicked out of their homes, and have their children taken away simply for WHO THEY ARE (I refuse to accept your argument ChiLaura, about it being the behavior). Your attitudes and beliefs make these injustices possible. If you believe differently you are fooling yourselves.

“While he apparently “shouldn’t” have been having heterosexual sex, that doesn’t by default mean that he *should* have been having gay sex. Has no one heard of “celibacy”? If celibacy doesn’t prove that sexual engaging or not engaging one’s sexual orientation is a behavior, I don’t know what does.”

(jaw drops)