Public Schools in Gentrifying ‘Hoods: Who Wants to Go First?
Posted August 15th, 2011 at 6:50 am
Today is the first day back to school for my high school junior, J (who also turns 16 today!!!). Eighth grader E starts back on Wednesday, and C’s preschool year gets underway the first week of September. So I have school on the brain this week. Specifically, I am thinking about our neighborhood’s public schools, and whether C will enroll there next fall, when she starts kindergarten.
Jon, the kids and I live in what is often referred to as a “gentrifying” urban neighborhood – the kind that has a lot of Subaru and Volvo wagons sporting Obama and NPR bumper stickers parked in driveways of restored Victorians (raising hand…except we sold our Subaru wagon and now, as y’all are aware, have a SOLID GOLD MINIVAN)
But our neighborhood is gentrifying, not gentrified, meaning that there are still alot of the pre-NPR-sticker residents who make their homes here as well, some as homeowners and many as renters. I truly love that our neighborhood’s demography is diverse economically, socially and yes, educationally. My kids see and meet all kinds of people every time we go out for a walk. But this lovely, organic mix of different kinds of neighbors seems to stop cold at the schoolroom door.
There’s a joke I’ve heard various neighbors make somewhat self-consciously since we moved into our house five years ago that our “neighborhood schools” are all located in other neighborhoods. And while I haven’t actually done any sort of scientific survey, that does kind of seem to be the case. What I mean is that I don’t personally know one single person who has moved into our neighborhood in order to do the whole live-in-the-cool-urban-neighborhood-in-a-cool-old-house thing who sends his or herchildren to the public schools for which we are actually zoned. Instead, their kids attend various private schools in our community, or the parents have managed to get transfers so their kinds can attend public schools in “nicer” parts of town. I do know several people who have children who were accepted in to the public elementary magnet school that’s not too far away from our neighborhood, but even then, that’s not the same as attending OUR neighborhood’s public schools.
And we are no different. When we moved to this neighborhood five years ago, my three older children were already well-entrenched in a private Episcopal k-8 school located 18 miles west of our new home, in the affluent suburbs of our city. My three oldest kids remained in their school after we became urban-dwellers (E is just starting his final year there). J now attends a public high school in the toniest zip code in town, something made possible because her father’s house is in that neighborhood, and E will likely follow suit next year.
But now C, who has never lived anywhere else other than where we live now, is four years old. She attended a private preschool part time last year, and she will again this year (we don’t have a public preschool option at all). But after that – next year – we have to make the kindergarten decision, and I am already feeling really stressed about it.
I have no regrets whatsoever for my three eldest attending the wonderful private school they all attended K-8, and I am grateful that it was possible. But Jon and I both really feel like C needs to go to school in our neighborhood if at all possible. Because my older kids have always attended school in neighborhoods in which I could not actually afford to live, I have spent the last 15 years driving 20-40 0r even 60 miles round-trip out to the ‘burbs anytime one of them was invited to a birthday party or sleepover. There was never the option of a spontaneous “let’s call Susie or Joey and see if they want to pop over to play this afternoon” because Susie and Joey lived waaaaaaaaay on the other side of town, with most of the other kids who were in my kids’ classrooms. Also, because the schools my kids have attended have been so far away, we often get home much too late in the day, and it’s logistically challenging to attend weeknight activities there, like PTA meetings and ball games.
There are many factors that should go into choosing a school for your kids, and over time, I’ve come to believe that having the school be located in the same neighborhood where your kids live – or at least pretty close – is a lot more important than I thought it was when my son Henry started kindergarten in 1995. At that time, I believed that all kinds of other factors were FAR more important than geography, or a sense of community. But my views have evolved after a lot of years and a lot of miles driven. And Jon agrees – we both want C (and G when she is old enough) to attend a neighborhood school, or something as close to that as possible.
But that’s the thing. The public schools for which our neighborhood is zoned aren’t considered very good. Their test scores don’t measure up, and in some cases, the physical facilities aren’t great. They certainly don’t look or feel anything like the bright, shiny public elementary schools in the more upscale parts of town. Plus, as I said, I don’t actually know ONE SINGLE PERSON who is currently sending his or her child to our neighborhood’s public schools. And let’s face it, it’s scary to think of having my own child “go first,” as it were.
But on the other hand, how can my neighborhood’s schools ever get any better if those of us who keep moving into this zip code because we say want to stake our roots here, and raise our kids here keep outsourcing the educational part of our adopted neighborhood’s appeal? Isn’t that a little like saying, “we like you city people, with your funky old houses, and your sidewalks, and your diversity and all, but we just don’t want our children to sit next to yours at school. I’m sure you understand, mmmmkay?”
I think it kind of is. And admitting this to myself makes me squirm. I don’t want to be like that.
But I also don’t want my child to be the exclamation point for my progressive political views. If we “go first,” what will that mean for her? How long would it take for other neighbors to follow?
I certainly do not mean to imply that NO one in our neighborhood sends their kids to the schools for which we are zoned. I am sure that many parents are very happy with the schools, and I guarantee you that there are some terrific teachers doing amazing work in our neighborhood’s schools. But I am not imagining it when I attend a party or event at a neighbor’s house, and as I chat up parent after parent after parent – all of them transplants into our neighborhood, like Jon and me – and NONE of them tells me that their kids are enrolled in our adopted neighborhood’s public schools.
So I am torn. This is a tough call to make. Of course, Jon and I will visit the various schools and meet the principals and look at test scores, etc over the next year, as we look ahead to kindergarten. And we will almost certainly also look at applying to that public magnet school I mentioned, learn how to apply for a public school transfer, and also consider whether we could possibly afford private school for C even if we wanted to make that choice.
Lots to think about….
How about you? How important is it to you that your kids attend public schools rather than private? What about the idea of neighborhood schools? How much do you value the importance of your kids’ schools being in relatively close proximity to your home? Help me think this one through in the comments below.
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165 Comments
[...] my new blog post over at Babble this morning, I’m kind of agonizing over whether Jon and I will walk the walk when it’s time for C [...]
When hipster parents outsource their kids' educationmamapundit commented on Aug 15 11 at 12:26 pm[...] to the best school for your children that you can afford, but this is an NPR liberal so Houston we have a problem: What I mean is that I don’t personally know one single person who has moved into our [...]
Liberal Guilt, Parenthood and Job #1 commented on Aug 17 11 at 8:16 am[...] A parent worries about making her daughter a pioneer in gentrifying her neighborhood school. (Babble) [...]
Remainders: Education emerging as Obama-Perry battleground | GothamSchools commented on Aug 18 11 at 8:32 pm[...] more like twins than first cousins.) C currently goes to preschool 2 full days a week, and we are anxiously trying to figure out what we will be doing for kindergarten next [...]
Please Allow Me to Introduce Myself (And My Kids) | Kid Scoop commented on Nov 15 11 at 9:11 am[...] daughter, C, may be taking her own kindergarten entrance exam in the near future. As I explained in an earlier (hotly debated) blog post, we are unlikely to want C to attend the public elementary school for which our street address is [...]
Will My Kid Pass the Kindergarten Entrance Exam? | Kid Scoop commented on Nov 18 11 at 2:42 pmAriel commented on Aug 15 11 at 12:19 pmWe’re in the same (uncomfortable) boat. What we’re trying to do is meet those parents in our neighborhood who DO send their kids to the schools here – seeking out ways to meet the long-time residents/non-transplants. And getting to know them and their kids. It’s making a big difference.
A.K. commented on Aug 15 11 at 12:23 pmI think you need to pick the best educational situation for your child–where HER educational needs will be met– regardless of the location of the school.
kgranju commented on Aug 15 11 at 12:30 pmA.K. – But I guess my point is that I think that being able to be part of the school community, and get to know classmates, etc is one factor of the “best” educational situation. See what I mean? – Katie
KatyinMA commented on Aug 15 11 at 12:35 pmWe live in a MA city that has seen much better days. We have lived here for 12 years, in one of the “nicer” (re: mostly middle class, home owner–but not upscale) residential areas. We were very committed to sending our kids to our neighborhood school. And our oldest did go there, from K through 4th grade…and we weren’t thrilled with it. Many of our neighborhood kids actually went to the private Catholic school (also in our neighborhood), so in order to keep our local school open, kids were bused in from other neighborhoods. And those kids were fine…but it was a different group of kids each year, so there was a huge amount of turnover in the school. And it was difficult for parents to be involved, for many reasons, so not much community there. And while the teachers were good, the principal was terrible.
What really worried us was our middle school options. The public middle schools are huge, underfunded, poorly maintained, and–honestly–they feel unsafe. Charter school options for 6-8 grades are minimal. So, a couple years ago, when our youngest entered kindergarten, we put her in the lottery for a k-12 charter school–and she got in. Which means that my other child got in a year later for 5th grade (siblings get priority on the waiting list.). We are happy with it so far, although it is 15 minutes away from us and certainly does not have a “neighborhood community” feel.
We do feel guilty about our decision at times, but we really had to do what was best for our kids–and my oldest would have been eaten alive at any of the other middle schools.
Talk with the principal of the neighborhood school and get a feel for the philosophy….that will tell you a lot.
renee commented on Aug 15 11 at 12:48 pmI live in a cool, urban, diverse neighborhood in New England, and our school is an approximately even mix of upper-middle-class professional/artsy gentrifiers, recent immigrants (mostly African), and working-class white families who have been here forever. I definitely know people who have fled from our neighborhood when their kids reach school age, but I see no downside to the neighborhood school–having a large low-income population means we’re eligible for grants, free tickets to stuff, and all kinds of goodies, and having even a small cadre of committed, helpful parents means we have some energy to pursue all the stuff we’re eligible for. The kids get to know people from all cultures, all the playdates are local (we manage with one car because I never have to drive the kids anywhere), and, best of all, my kids aren’t surrounded by rich kids, so their expectations regarding material things are low. I strongly believe that these kinds of values–cultural and economic diversity and community–are every bit as important in how “good” a school is as reading scores (because frankly anything they need to learn at the elementary level they can learn at home anyhow).
But as for what you should do: visit the school, find out who’s in charge of the PTO (if there is one) and what they are doing, and talk to some parents who actually send their kids there (not the ones who chose not to!) And read Sandra Tsing Loh’s book on this subject–she’s a nut, but it’s very funny.
KD commented on Aug 15 11 at 12:51 pmWe are in the same situation, living in a large-ish (625K) midwestern city. We live in the tony neighborhood, but the public schools here are all pretty uneven and kids can attend almost any school in the city, so our neighborhood school (four blocks from us) has very few students who actually live in the neighborhood. We have lived here for 17 years and haven’t seen the percentage of neighborhood kids in that school increase terribly much. The “going first” piece is a real problem, as piecemeal increases don’t get you far that fast. We sent our kids to a terrific charter school in the city (about 10 miles away) and then moved them to a public school in the suburb right next door. In the end, we came down on the side of not using our kids as the flying wedge of a social experiment on our own liberalism. But it is a tough call to make.
Tara commented on Aug 15 11 at 12:52 pmGreat post. I think you hit the nail on the head. I’m in the same situation right now. My oldest starts Kindergarten this year and I’ve agonized over whether to do the private/public/magnet route for the past 2 years. Both of my parents were public school teachers (now retired), one at our city’s top high school, the other at one of the “worst” high schools. I saw the disparity in resources and parent involvement up close. So I know it’s not just even a private or public school argument. There are legitimate differences. But here’s the thing, the “bad” high school wasn’t really bad. There were just a LOT of kids from lower socio-economic means. They didn’t go to ivy league universities in record percentage like the “good” high school, or win all-state at a lot of sports, but that’s where the home environment plays into effect. The “good” high school parents could afford to fill in the gap where scholarships left off, and the “good” high school students played in winter leagues and private off-season clubs. But….what you won’t find in the school “grade” or the google synopsis is that the “bad” school fostered a sense of individuality in its students, where you still found cliques but they were racially diverse within. I have to believe that’s going to serve those students well in life too. They won’t go to college and say “oh wow, that’s a lot of black people. I don’t know how to react around black people.” For the record, my parents chose for me to go to the “good” high school where my dad taught.
We similarly live in a neighborhood that is not zoned for the best school, or even one of the best schools in our large metrocity. I immediately began to start looking at private schools and we actually applied to one of them but didn’t get in. I found out about the pre-IB programs offered in our county and thought that was the best of both worlds. An aggressive approach to education in a public school atmosphere.
Julie commented on Aug 15 11 at 12:59 pmI have no personal experience with this and no children of my own, but my first thought was – is there anything that could happen in school when your daughter is 5 that is really going to give her a significant educational disadvantage later in life? Probably not? As long as you make sure she’s on track as far as hitting various milestones (which may require supplementing at home…which you may have more time to do if you’re not shuttling her around) I feel like an otherwise happy 5 year old is not going to be disadvantaged because she attends a school that isn’t “top notch” or where they don’t serve organic granola at snack time or whatever the fancy schools are doing these days. Obviously, this changes as she gets toward the middle school/high school age and certain skills become more important for success later in life.
My husband and I talk about this sort of thing quite a bit. He went to an “urban” high school – sub-25% graduation rate, the occasional shooting, etc. – but was a great student, never once got into trouble or was even tempted to drink or do drugs. He’s now now a teacher at one of the best public charter high schools in Los Angeles, that pulls about 50% from the local community and 50% from way lower income areas. I went to high school in an affluent part of CT (although my family was not affluent) and got into way more trouble and was a so-so student, although I had a much easier time adjusting to college classes, perhaps due to a more rigorous high school curriculum. We just bought a house in a gentrify-ing part of Los Angeles, and although kids are still a few years off, we often discuss where we’d send them for school. I believe our children would be eligible to attend the school district where my husband works, in the uber-affluent Pacific Palisades, where as a teacher-lawyer couple our kids would probably be the poorest ones there. Or, we could send them to our neighborhood school, where 90% of kids qualify for free lunch (as I did when I was that age, for the record), and where as white kids with English as their first language, they’d be a super minority (I’m talking like 2%). I love our neighborhood and the diversity, but I honestly have no idea what we’ll do. I already feel super protective of my future kids and worry about them sticking out like sore thumbs at their future school, more than I worry about the quality of education they’d receive.
So sorry, no help here. But, I sympathize with your dilemma. I’m sure, whatever you choose, it’ll work out for the best. The good news is, nothing is permanent.
TL commented on Aug 15 11 at 1:25 pmI don’t even have kids, but I sympathize! I can’t imagine how hard it is to try to make decisions like these. I will tell you that I went to a not so stellar (but not horrid) very rural school – the only option in my area. What we did at home with mom and dad and their involvement in our education made up for the gaps and I got to learn how to get along with people not always “just like me” – an education maybe not available at some other schools.
Clisby commented on Aug 15 11 at 1:29 pmPublic v. private wasn’t at all important to us, except that obviously if a public school and a private school tied for our top choice we’d pick the public school to save money. We wanted (a) to live where we wanted to live, so we paid no attention to quality of schools when we chose a neighborhood; and (b) to find the kind of school we wanted – which meant not a traditional school. When we lived in intown Atlanta, our daughter attended a neighborhood private non-traditional school that I loved. It wasn’t a Montessori school, but it had multi-age classes (one of my top priorities) and differentiated instruction. It also was nothing like “bright, shiny public elementary schools” – it was what used to be Sunday School rooms in a crumbling old downtown church building. It was wonderful. When we moved to Charleston in the middle of a school year, my daughter spent a little over half of 3rd grade in her neighborhood public school. This was in a *wealthy* neighborhood, and test scores would indicate it was one of the best in the county. To me, it was a nice, friendly, completely mediocre school. Fortunately, by the next year we were able to get her into a public Montessori charter school, where she stayed through 8th grade; my son is about to start his 4th year there. I don’t know what to say – I went to neighborhood schools when I was growing up. It really was nice to have neighborhood kids in my classes, but not in a million years would I subject my kids to the substandard education I got. (As far as I know, there wasn’t any superior private option when I was in school. I’m certainly not advocating choosing a mediocre private school over a mediocre public school – that doesn’t make any financial sense.)
Fletcher commented on Aug 15 11 at 1:30 pmYou could have a party and invite the neighborhood parents to discuss banding together to send your children to the community school. If most of you make a mutual decision to take back your schools, after all it IS your neighborhood, it would do great things for the neighborhood. Property values would increase, your bank accounts would grow (no expensive tuition) and a big, positive change could be made for an entire school. That’s progress.
Amy K commented on Aug 15 11 at 1:30 pmWe’ve had our kids in our neighborhood school; a nearby public co-op; and now (starting next week), a private middle school. And, the irony, our younger child is returning to the same neighborhood school from which we removed her older brother after 1st grade (she has attended the public co-op from K-4th). However, our decision doesn’t have much to do with the academic conditions at the schools, but where our kids fit and what fits into our working lives.
Good luck! I’m glad you have choices and time…
manfred commented on Aug 15 11 at 1:37 pmGet over yourself already and your aspirations of knowing the “elite” and “tony.”
Send her to the neighborhood school or stop taking the powerful narcotic that is voting and pontificating the way you do because you feel “guilty over its apartheid circumstances and is desperately seeking spiritual redemption on the cheap.”
And for heaven’s sake, please stop voting and advocating for the rest of us to pay for your beliefs that you’re not willing to put into practice.
http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/liberal-psychoses/
kgranju commented on Aug 15 11 at 1:47 pmManfred – Your opinions would be a lot more persuasive if you did not make a habit of following me around online and posting uniformly negative and hostile comments on anything I write. You’re like the commenter who cried wolf at this point; you can only angrily disagree with a blogger so many times in a row before people start discounting what you have to say as “there goes that Manfred person again…eye roll”
. I hope you will give that some thought because I am sure you are a thoughtful and clever person with much to add to any online discourse.
Respectfully,
- Katie
Danielle commented on Aug 15 11 at 1:54 pmA few thoughts…first of all, test scores are certainly not the whole story regarding whether a school is good or bad. My oldest daughter is starting kindergarten next week at our local bilingual immersion (Spanish) charter school which serves K-6. They purposely enroll 50% native English speakers, and 50% native Spanish speakers, and instruction in the first year is 80% in Spanish. Test scores for the first 2-3 years are not great, but even out and are ahead of the curve by the end of 6th grade. There are many other factors to consider instead of just “do they teach to the test.” But, I totally agree that if you are going to put C in a neighborhood school with fewer resources, then one of you should be able/willing to be pretty involved in the PTO. Is John able to fit that into his schedule?
I also agree with other commenters who have suggested that there is a wealth of life lessons learned from being friends with people of different socioeconomic backgrounds. These kids will be better adjusted socially when it comes time to go to higher grades or get out there in the workforce. In my mind, public schools are a big piece of truly socializing people.
Lastly, if you decide to send C to the local school, and it doesn’t work out, you can always make a different decision. Obviously it’s easier to say that then implement it, but it’s still true.
Fletcher commented on Aug 15 11 at 1:55 pmSomething many parents probably don’t think of is: If you send your bright child to a school where the scores aren’t as high, your child will most likely have an advantage when it comes to scholarships for college. Top ten in the graduating class looks better than 45th in the graduating class.
ChrissyD commented on Aug 15 11 at 2:04 pmGreat discussion. We live in a relatively affluent neighborhood with four elementary schools. The school my children attend is the only one with a large apartment complex in district, which includes some government-subsidized housing. So our school is very diffferent from the other three in town. We have a more diverse population with a large percentage of newly-immigrated children into our school, and a good percentage of families below the poverty line—non-existent at the other schools.
Honestly, I’ve found the experience to be both positive and negative. I love that the children are exposed to a greater diversity of cultures and lifestyles, as it’s more like the real world. And even though our school population has unique challenges, we have a good proportion of teachers and resources and (most important to me) high test scores and we are a top-performing school.
But having your child start school in a class with other children who cannot speak English (30% in kindergarten) and who have never attended preschool (58%) does detract from the learning process for other children who come ready and prepared to learn. Especially in the first few years, until they catch up.
Also, I’ve found that newly-immigrated families are for the most part very insular, so they don’t do play-dates, sports or extra-curriculars etc. And because they aren’t homeowners, there’s a higher mobility rate.
I don’t know the demographics of your school, but it’s something to think about. Both my children are doing well right now, so I’m happy at the moment. But if anything changed to deter from their learning, I’d make a change in a heartbeat. The most important thing to me is the quality of their education. Period.
One more point…my children have made friends with some children in the neighborhood who attend private schools, through in-town recreational sports. So if you decide to go another route, your child can still make friends in the neighborhood through extra-curriculars that should be open for her to join.
Carrie commented on Aug 15 11 at 2:28 pmIt’s socialization I worry about most. My feeling is that I can make up for poor instruction at home, but I worry about how the social environment and expectations of the students, parents and teachers will affect my child. This can be true in a ‘good school’ or ‘bad school’.
Do I put the pressure on my child to rise above the standards of the school I palce her in? When it’s not expected for every child to eventually enter college (like it was in the public school I attended), will my child be influenced by that? I know all too well that as a parent I only have so much influenece and control, I want to be very careful about how we approach the social environment that she grows up in (stacking the deck, I guess).
Clisby commented on Aug 15 11 at 2:29 pmTo add to what a couple of people have commented:
1) I wouldn’t assume that children at the “neighborhood” school come from the neighborhood. My neighborhood zoned school has about 400 kids, and fewer than 100 come from this neighborhood.
2) I would not assume that private schools can’t have a lot of diversity in the student population. By far, the most ethnically diverse school either of my children has attended was a private school.
Julie commented on Aug 15 11 at 2:48 pmTo “Fletcher” – I agree to a certain extent, but you also have to consider college preparedness. My (limited) example is that I went to a great public school in an affluent area, graduated somewhere around 120 in my class of 420 with around a 3.5 GPA, and sailed through my freshman year courses at a public university with around a 3.8 GPA. My husband graduated in the top 20 of his class in an urban, low-ranked school, and struggled through his freshman year at the same college, earning some Cs and Ds despite studying hard. I took more AP classes in high school, but otherwise we took a pretty similar college prep/honors curriculum. I actually got more scholarships at college, mostly because I had a high-ish SAT score (1370 to his 1200).
marisa commented on Aug 15 11 at 2:54 pmI live in East Harlem, NY–when my son started kindergarten, I got a variance for him to attend a public school outside our district. I lost the variance at middle school, so he went to a middle school in East Harlem. The differences were stark. Read this article (not sure if it applies to your zoned school, but it certainly describes what went on in my son’s middle school)
http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/edweek/poor.htm
I finally pulled him out in January of this year – when three cops in exposed bullet proof vests came to his 7th grade classroom, and arrested a classmate.
Not the environment I want him in.
Cathy commented on Aug 15 11 at 2:55 pmHmmm. Well, I’m on the other side of the tracks. I am one of the rural poor who have no choice at all when considering school other than homeschooling. My kids go where the bus will take them. On the other hand, I like to think I still raise children who are considerate of others and who are an asset in the classroom.
Our town is isolated enough that you have to drive an hour round trip to take them anywhere else. Oddly enough, the professors kids (we live near some colleges) and the dirt farmers kids seem to get along just fine. Our test scores suck, but I am not gearing up for Ivy League. A master’s at a state school will be just fine by me.
Count your blessings, I guess- in NYC people pay thousands for scouts to get their kids into Ivy League track preschools. Preschools that cost more than my college.
I admit, this topic does make me squirm. I love you and your strong heart Katie- you and I share the same pain- but this reeeeeeeeks of privilege.
MemeGRL commented on Aug 15 11 at 2:58 pmKindergarten is as good a time as any to try out the local school. At the end of that year, you’ll have a good gut feeling as to whether it will work for C, and what (if any) other options you might have for her. I’m with you on the miles-for-playdates issue. It’s huge. I almost took a job in a tony private school near us because unlike our (actually supposedly quite good) district, the private school’s reading list was closer to what my kids were actually reading (ie, picture books were out before 4th grade). But. It was SO far. And the kids who went there mostly lived further. And I just couldn’t do it.
Cathy commented on Aug 15 11 at 3:02 pmI would like to add, though- that it IS the close relationship with locals that has made our lives full lately. Having other parents you trust having your kiddo over for the afternoon. Ridesharing and impromptu coffee parties. Yes, you are right to consider this. There is a feeling of community here that makes me feel like I, and my children , are growing roots here, and not just living here.
Annie commented on Aug 15 11 at 3:11 pmWe live in a wonderful, ‘up-and-coming’ neighborhood near downtown Denver–we love our neighbors and the diversity in all areas reflected here. There is a huge number of young families in the couple of streets around me, and it seems like we all have found our own ways to deal with the fact that our neighborhood school is unquestionably terrible–choicing into other schools, private school, charter schools. I don’t need my kids to go to the best school, but among the very worst in the state poses a problem. While I understand that the school would improve by having committed families enroll their children, I was unwilling to have my child be the guinea pig in the effort. Some children may be driven, diligent students no matter their environment, but I know my child well enough to know that boredom and others’ behavioral challenges would not be a good educational scenario for him.
One commenter, Julie, asked if it would really be that detrimental to a 5-year old to attend a lower-performing school, and I think the answer is a resounding yes. My oldest son was a strong reader before kindergarten began, having gone to a wonderful Montessori preschool supported by a strong literary environment in our home, and he would have had a difficult time sitting in a class at our neighborhood school with many children who may have had no formal schooling or education at home until that point.
We chose an expeditionary learning charter school that is only 5 minutes from our home, and we like the fact that the school is committed to having 33% of the families qualified for free and reduced lunch. There are students from a wide range of backgrounds and educational levels, and the teachers are wonderful at building out curriculum for those processing material at a higher level. I think having your children at a school with only very wealthy families can present as many challenges as the opposite end of the spectrum, and I am thankful I found an educational balance that works for our family. Good luck; I know it’s a difficult process…
http://www.tunheimfamily.blogspot.com
Nik commented on Aug 15 11 at 3:15 pmThe town we live in is rather small and all the schools are considered to be “good schools” for the most part. The community we live in is rather homogeneous so all the schools are pretty white and middle/upper middle class. This is not necessarily a positive thing for us as we are a bicultural family who doesn’t fit the norm in this community and we’d like our kids to have more exposure to diversity. For that reason, we are hoping that we are zoned for the school closer to downtown which has a more multicultural population (and higher poverty rates). I am having this discussion, though, with friends who live in larger areas and are facing this same situation. They are conflicted in much the same way you are. I am always struck by the racial dimension that underlies this topic. It doesn’t get discussed overtly much of the time, although it is there. Not to say that families don’t want to send their kids to schools because of the high percentage of black, Latino, etc. who go there, not that kind of overt racism. But if we look at this as a systemic issue, we undoubtedly see that the low performing schools tend to have a higher percentage of children of color. And those children don’t necessarily have the option/ privilege to look elsewhere for better schools because of their particular circumstances. Gentrification is a complex issue and gentrifiers *should* be grappling with the social implications of their decision to move into communities of color/ low-income communities. I’m not taking a stance here for or against sending your kids elsewhere, Katie. What I’m saying is that I believe your decision is bigger than just “where will our kids get the best education”. This whole topic is a continuation of the dialogue about institutionalized racism in America and how it persists in spite of good intentions/ civil rights/ Obama being elected, etc.
Brandy commented on Aug 15 11 at 3:30 pmWe also live in Knoxville (North Hills, which isn’t far from your neighborhood, I think) and we don’t send our children to our zoned school. We had them transferred to another Knox County School. I had to do what was best for my children and their zoned school was not one I wanted them attending. The school has changed quite a bit in the 7 years we have lived in our house.
I also wanted to let you know that KCS does offer public pre-school and it’s a great program. Many people think it is for low income only, but it’s not. Our oldest daughter attended and it benefitted her greatly. In fact, it is how I found the school that we had them transferred to.
Steph commented on Aug 15 11 at 3:34 pmWhile I live in a diverse neighborhood and love our house, we will move before our kids are of school age. I have no problem with multicultural, diverse, etc schools, but in our lower income neighborhood it is not uncommon for there to be violence, theft, extreme bullying, etc. There is gang activity (high school). The schools have low test scores. Their attendance rates are below 50%. the parents, many of them, couldn’t care less about the children or their education. The teachers (I know several personally) are beyond frustrated. There is absolutely no reason I would ever send my children to our local school. It is asking for them to be immersed in a negative environment and simply inviting trouble into their future. While it doesn’t sound like you are in such an extreme situation, I think you have to know your child and know where she would be happiest and have the best chance to thrive, despot the zip code of the school.
A.K. commented on Aug 15 11 at 3:51 pmKatie, indeed, community can be a big plus. However, don’t sacrifice other important educational factors in favor of having friendships and involvement. Those things are part of the picture, but certainly not the whole. And I do offer these thoughts as a professional educator (I have doctorate in education and teach online for two prominent universities), mom, –and home schooling mom too. I selected home school because it could offer my boys the breadth, depth, and freedom that traditional, charter, and even online schools simply can’t. Travel is very high on our list, and we can’t just go anywhere when confined to the schedule of public/private education. In your own situation, you do indeed, have to weigh many factors. You’ll want to really key into what C’s needs actually are, and you and Jon know that best. In addition, you may not find some of that out until she is IN that formal education setting. Your perceptions and ideas may change as she completes that first year. For example, we started in traditional public school, but we changed once we realized our oldest son was well beyond is classmates. Anyway, I am sure you’ll select the best thing for C for getting her started on her own educational journey.
K. C. commented on Aug 15 11 at 4:04 pmDon’t underestimate the influence that you and Jon will have as parents on her education. I taught in a school that was the best of the best and at a school that wasn’t so hot. In both cases, the kids who did the best were the kids who had support at home. I guess what I’m saying is that no matter where you send her, she will thrive because she has you, Jon, and the rest of her family supporting her. (And test scores are bunk. Standardized tests are bunk. But that’s just my opinion. LOL) My husband went to a private school, and I am a former public school student and teacher. He had a great experience, but so did I. I don’t want to spend $$$$ for private school, and I also don’t want my kids with the same twenty kids for their entire school careers. Our neighborhood elementary school is about two hundred yards from our house, and that’s where they’ll go.
Chrissy commented on Aug 15 11 at 4:10 pmI agree with you, Katie (or rather, I empathize with your predicament). I think if parents decided to be a part of their community and community school en masse the schools would improve via parental involvement (which is what experts say makes or breaks a school sometimes). You also can’t really judge a school by its cover (whether the cover is glossy or worn). We heard negative comments about our son’s school (West Hills Elementary), that it was overcrowded, that it was slightly disadvantaged because it’s a Title I school, and really…we’ve been NOTHING but pleased. Title 1 status allows a school to receive a ton of extra funds and attention.
Honestly, I think some progressive folks get nervous if there are a lot of minorities or underprivileged kids sitting next to their kid. You have to walk the walk if you’re going to talk the talk. There are 44 nationalities represented at my son’s school. A lot of the kids speak English as a second language. Some of the kids are poor. It’s a mixed demographic (Baptists! Muslims! Catholics! Jews! Oh my!) which is what I wanted my son to be exposed to. There, I said it. WH has a wonderful principal who cares and is efficient. The teachers are kind and competent. The students feel loved and safe. We really love living in West Hills, and the school is a big reason why.
Maybe give the public school a try for a year? Seriously, think of the $$ you’d save. It sometimes takes just the ONE family to try something new (for them) and the rest might follow suit.
Or, you can move. To a neighborhood that might be more compatible academically with your family’s needs. You can still live close-in Knoxville in a diverse, funky community. I’m thinking of Bearden Elem. area, West Hills (of course), Fountain City, South Knoxville (Mooreland Heights is a wonderful school).
Great conversation starter, Katie!!
Leah commented on Aug 15 11 at 4:47 pmMy parents sent me to the local public schools largely for the sake of supporting the public schools. The reputation of the schools was mediocre, but they thought that that could be made up for by extra opportunities they could provide for me at home. Paying for private school would have been a stretch and there wasn’t one nearby, so the community factor you are concerned about was a factor for them as well.
I did very well at the public schools and was accepted at a top university where I felt TOTALLY unprepared. Being one of the best at my public school was not enough to make me feel as though I was competitive when I was in a classroom with young adults who had attended some of the nation’s best public schools or private schools. I worked very hard my entire first two years of college to catch up. Because of this experience, when I have kids I will send them to the school that can provide the best education. It’s great if you can have community/ support your community too, but my own very disappointing experience has led me to believe that the number one criterion has to be the quality of the education provided, which, at least to my mind, is the single most important mission of schooling.
Andrea commented on Aug 15 11 at 4:49 pmThe elementary school we are zoned for in Knoxville is 86% white with only 12% economically disadvantaged. I find those statistics alarming because the real world is not all rich white people! I feel our kids will be at a disadvantage once they leave this bubble we live in. I suppose the supplemental learning at home in our case will include lessons in diversity.
Leah commented on Aug 15 11 at 5:00 pmI wanted to add that the public schools I attended were extremely diverse both racially and socioeconomically. The idea of a diverse student body appealed to my parents as well. Frankly, I would have been better off learning to value diversity in another context outside of school and instead had a higher quality physics class.
While I’m at it :)….The power of the PTA is limited. Getting schools to change the way they do things/ provide extra opportunities for more advanced students is far more difficult than it ideally would be, as my parents learned the hard way. For instance, they (and a bunch of other parents) tried to get the middle school to add a Shakespeare play to their curriculum. The school (to their surprise) said okay. Two weeks later my brother came home with a double-sided ditto with a summary of “Othello.”
Katy E commented on Aug 15 11 at 5:02 pmYou live right down the road from a wonderful k-8 school choc full of community. I, personally, went to St. Joseph’s and it was a wonderful place. It still is, from what I’ve heard. It taught us compassion, hard work, community etc…Yes, you’d pay tuition but the thing about it is that the kids that attend ALL have parents that sacrifice so they can get the great education they provide.The families that send their kids to SJS aren’t rich by any stretch but they value the Catholc education. It’s fantastic. Go to the fall festival this year and get a taste for that community.
Susan commented on Aug 15 11 at 5:03 pmIt seems to me as though you ought to support your neighborhood.
On the other hand, your kids are your kids the rest of your life and it’s your job to make sure they have the best tools possible.
Beats me. Maybe you should move to a neighborhood with better schools?
Indya commented on Aug 15 11 at 5:08 pmKatie,
Good conversation! I’m happy to discuss all these issues with you. I can offer my perspective as a parent, and as your school board member. I can also introduce you to parents who’ve enrolled in your local school and been pleased.
I also agree with the commenter who said both C & G will do well educationally with you and Jon as parents, no matter where they attend school.
Indya
jzzy55 commented on Aug 15 11 at 5:09 pmVisit, research, talk, sift, percolate…you’ll know what to do.
As somebody once said, most of us aren’t likely to go against our class interests.
I sure didn’t and I wouldn’t criticize anyone who does.
But I definitely see your point about the convenience of not doing all that driving and having friends nearby. 36 miles RT/day is pretty awful.
farfalla commented on Aug 15 11 at 5:09 pmI grew up in a neighborhood like this, and went to the local public schools from day one. I am so thankful for the experiences it gave me. My elementary schools were particularly low-income.
I’m sure that the education I got at these schools wasn’t technically as good as a private school or a public school in a more affluent neighborhood. I don’t feel like I suffered for it, really — I’m not quite sure how to explain this, but I’ll try. I believe that my parents were going to be involved enough in my education either way (especially in elementary school) to make up for any gaps. Furthermore, they were active in the schools and worked hard to improve them. So for me, I don’t know that the educational “quality” of my K-5 schools made THAT much of a difference. However, I am pretty sure that my parents involvement improved the education for my classmates whose parents couldn’t supplement their kids educations or influence the schools. Not because those parents didn’t care, but because I went to school with kids whose parents were working 3 jobs to support themselves and their extended families, kids whose parents didn’t speak English, and kids whose parents didn’t have enough education to do what my parents did for me.
I pretty firmly believe that the benefits of attending a diverse school outweighed the potentially lesser educational value. I really appreciate the fact that spent much of my youth in the minority — obviously, being white and a minority at school doesn’t reflect the reality of being non-white in American life, but it was certainly an unusual and valuable experience. My friends came from so many different backgrounds and as a kid I hardly even noticed. I’m really grateful to my parents for taking the “risk” that so many of our white and middle-class neighbors wouldn’t by sending me to the public schools.
I say do it. At least try it. Maybe I didn’t learn the days of the week as fast as kids in the richer school, but I obviously learned them and I learned so much more about life and diversity and people.
JennG commented on Aug 15 11 at 5:21 pmIt’s a tough one. I’m fortunate to be in Toronto where the gap between a “bad school” and a “good school” is not quite so large, but I have had the same concerns and so do my friends and neighbours. In our case we’re lucky in that the local school is not at the bottom – but it’s not at the top city-wise either. What we did was keep our son in Montessori for kindergarten, because we could see he was on the verge of reading and we didn’t want to interrupt that. Now he’s a fluid reader and other skills are good, so for grade 1 we are happy to try the public.
I believe as a worst-case scenario, one year is recoverable. I think the main thing for us is to stay connected and aware and not too married to one ideal or another so that we can make the choices that are right for *this* child at *this* time. I am not huge on making my child a social experiment, but I also believe that he and our family (through grace) are robust enough *this* year to do that. Then we’ll go from there. Not that here it is such a big deal, lucky us.
cath young commented on Aug 15 11 at 5:29 pmFor us, it came down to what was the best choice for the kid, and what we could manage, both in terms of finances and commuting distance. Nothing else mattered.
Natalie commented on Aug 15 11 at 6:54 pmI wouldn’t put too much stock in the test score issue. There’s a lot of evidence to suggest that out of school factors count twice as much as in school factors in terms of student success. For my first three years of teaching, I taught in a very affluent public school and for the past four years I’ve been teaching in a low-scoring public school. I’m a much better teacher now, but get poor results. The kids in the affluent neighborhood just had so much more going for them before they even entered the door. Your family supports your children, and that’s going to count a lot.
Anne commented on Aug 15 11 at 7:15 pmHere in Scandinavia you don´t have a choice. You attend the local public school whether it´s a good one or not. There are private schools over here but they are scarce and extremely expensive and not within the reach of most middle class families.
So I kindly suggest that you Americans take a moment to reflect how incredibly lucky you are to be able to choose from a variety of schools for your children and debate endlessly which one´s the best when the only choice my family had was the local public school which was not a good one. I was not able to attend a genuinely good school academically until I went into high school and then I could choose from all high schools in my town. So while I get and respect that this is a dilemma for parents in America, it´s a dilemma of luxury, pure luxury.
Ally commented on Aug 15 11 at 7:43 pmHere in Olympia Wa, we have pretty decent public schools. The whole test score thing is pretty complicated….not sure how much importance I’d place on it. It’s a hard decision that my sister in DC has to face!! My guess is that your daughter will be just fine wherever she is! I like my kids being part of a socio economic mix, but it is truly a mix. Good luck!!
Artemisia commented on Aug 15 11 at 8:35 pmNo, as much as I’d personally love to do less driving, “public” and “close proximity” just aren’t as important as skilled teachers, good “fit”, challenging academics, classrooms under control, etc.
But you’ll never know until you visit and research and try out the best option, and then you may change your mind again a few times. That’s fine!
Some things to think about as you look:
1) A cozy close neighborhood school isn’t the only way to experience community. I’d check out the Catholic school someone mentioned up-thread – we’re not Catholic but after sending my youngest to a Catholic School for high school, I’m really impressed with the community and rigor. Diversity and community can be also found at church or in neighborhood sports and activities. If the local school is really questionable (unmotivated teachers, weak class management, undefined goals, not enough resources to teach a diverse group) it’s just not worth it.
2) Teachers quality trumps everything. Our town grew enormously right after ed reform was passed in our state, which increased teacher salaries and required higher credentials – so we had quite a few newly-hired brilliant, dedicated young things that were flat out amazing in their ability to manage a classroom and make sure a diverse bunch of kids were learning at a dozen different levels. I’d send my kid to a school in the worst neighborhood in town if the teachers were of that quality. Get to know the staff and find out if you have any influence over placements. And if they talk about “differential teaching,” ask for specific examples – they should have several for every subject and it should be clear they do it constantly. It’s important in any heterogeneous classroom. And if a teacher tells you a child reading before age six is “developmentally inappropriate” or a child who doesn’t read until seven probably belongs in a sped classroom, run away fast.
3) Here, at least, UML schools don’t really dare have gifted programs or track until seventh or eighth grade – it’s just too loaded, because every parent thinks their kid is gifted. Meanwhile, many of the urban and mixed-income suburbs have great G/T programs starting early. That would be a plus in my book.
4) A decent if not stellar elementary isn’t going to hurt a child of involved parents. But if you go public, be prepared to transfer around middle school. It seems to be possible to maintain a good elementary school in a transitional neighborhood, but much harder once the kids hit 13 and the curriculum gets more challenging.
Grace commented on Aug 15 11 at 10:33 pmI grew up in a city with bad public schools (where the middle class goes private or finagles entry to neighboring towns with good public schools, as you describe). I attended public school for kindergarten and 1st, and it was an absolutely terrible experience. (After that my parents gave up and paid $20,000/year for private, at a considerable sacrifice.)
Even though the students were so small, they were already poorly socialized (=aggressive) and didn’t really come to school with much concept of how to behave in a classroom or any skills, so a lot of class time had to be dedicated to managing bad behavior rather than learning. When we did learn, since most of the class was starting from a very low level, the teacher couldn’t move as quickly, so the gap between our school and a wealthy school would just widen every year. I was completely bored and learned nothing. I was also cruelly bullied by two (psychologically disturbed) classmates, who both had extremely dysfunctional single parent homes.
Also, in a poor neighborhood, parents don’t usually care very much about education. So children are often absent from class; no one volunteers at the school; there’s not an active PTA or fundraising group; and children tend not to do their homework (since their parents don’t care). This means few field trips, no enrichment activities, and even less successful learning.
While parents can provide some of these things at home, the kids at the good school are benefiting twice, at school and home (don’t forget their parents care about them too). By sending your child to a bad school, you are giving them a substantial handicap that is difficult to recover from. Personally, I would rather go into debt than send my child to a bad public school: education is for life, and is one of the most important gifts a parent can give their children.
Audrey commented on Aug 15 11 at 10:38 pmIf her personal safety isn’t at risk, then I say go for the neighborhood school. I live in a small town. I sent one kid to what passes for private school until I could get him past the “You have to be x years old by Sept 1st” hurdle of the public system (early reader with an October birthday). All my kids have gone to the one non-parochial middle school available here. It has failed NCLB year after year. It is diverse. And you know what, my kids have learned, thrived and excelled. They have great and enthusiastic teachers. It’s not like C’s not going to learn there. It’s not like she’s not going to get into college because she goes there. Do it, Katie. Go first.
Claire R commented on Aug 15 11 at 10:55 pmAs you may know, Memphis has notoriously horrible schools. Some of them are really, really bad. When we moved here from a safe, quiet, little community school in Massachusetts, I worried and did a lot of hand-wringing over the school situation, and ended up with two very different experiences.
My older daughter went to the top high school in the city, NOT our neighborhood high school. The reason for this was that she knew 2 high school age kids here before we moved, and they both went to that school. She had to test in. She had a great experience, got into top colleges, and educationally has done very well. The down side was that socially, none of her friends lived near her, we had to constantly drive her all over to get places, (until she got her license) and it was a long public bus ride from our home. In the winter, I didn’t like her on the bus and then walking home after dark, so she hopped on for 2 stops and went to the library every day until I got off work and could pick her up.
My younger daughter went to the community elementary, middle, and high school. She could walk there. Her education is markedly different, however, she is also a markedly different student by nature. Socially, she hit her stride. She found a lot of good friends, she was able to get to her sports events, dances, etc., much more easily, and she did fine. She’s in college, she’s happy, and I’m happy.All of this is to say that I fully support community schooling. If I were to do it from K, I would definitely go the neighborhood route, and unless you see a problem, just keep C there. You will make friends with her friends’ parents, they will be nearby, you will find a community. I would go for it, but that’s just me.
I have not read through the comments, but I feel certain at least one person has remarked that you and Jon will have a TON to do with how she learns.
Think of all you’re learning for G!
citymouse commented on Aug 15 11 at 10:55 pmExactly what Audrey said – C’s elementary years will not be the deciding factor as to whether she’ll go to college…her socioeconomic status has a lot more to do with that. Elementary school is much more about socialization, and if you can expose your daughter to diversity at a young age, that’s a good thing. We’re in a city that has a ways to go in terms of getting its public schools in order, but we feel the need to be part of the solution (and we’re also part of a trend of upper-middle-class parents opting for public schools here.) Good luck deciding, but it sounds like you really want her in your local school!
Steve commented on Aug 15 11 at 10:56 pmI think you should do what’s best for your child.
But I also think you should advocate allowing everyone else in your neighborhood, city, state, and country to have the opportunity to do what’s best for their child.
Which means supporting school vouchers — so that every American family can have the same choices that you do, including moving their kids out of non-performing schools into those that can provide a solid education.
Jerome Washington commented on Aug 15 11 at 11:02 pm” I truly love that our neighborhood’s demography is diverse economically, socially and yes, educationally.” Actually you don’t or you would have never agonized over sending your child to the neighborhood school. Let’s be frank. Is there a racial element here?
kgranju commented on Aug 15 11 at 11:12 pmJerome asks: “Let’s be frank. Is there a racial element here?”
That’s a fair question, but the answer is no. In fact, the specific urban neighborhood in which we live is **NOT** diverse racially. At all.
-Katie
11235813213455 commented on Aug 15 11 at 11:13 pmThis isn’t a difficult question at all. It’s telling that your post is mostly agonizing about how the school your child attends makes YOU feel and the image YOU want to project to your neighbors and your community. Most of your post is about your own vanity, not about securing the best education for your child. I wouldn’t respect for a second a parent who “keeps it real” by sending their kid to a crummy neighborhood school when they could have sent their child to a better one.
In this instance, your responsibility as a parent is to secure the best education possible for your child. If your neighborhood school provides that, great. If not, and you have the means to send your child to a better school, you should do so.
I grew up in an urban area with dreadful public schools. No one who lived in the neighborhood sent their kids to the public schools. My mother told me that after she visited the neighborhood public school and witnessed the children openly disobeying and ignoring the teachers, and interacting with a teacher that was visibly and aromatically drunk, she went back to her car and cried for 10 minutes.
Everyone in my neighborhood went to private school. Everyone was better off for it. No one felt guilty about it. You shouldn’t either.
J.R. commented on Aug 15 11 at 11:16 pmI don’t understand why this decision does not begin and end with what’s best for your kid’s education and/or what works for your life logistically. Why do parents feel an obligation to send their children to a local school on the grounds that they are helping the school by sending their kids there? How does your child’s presence help the school?
Richard Aubrey commented on Aug 15 11 at 11:17 pmI recently asked a relation of mine who was going on about diversity if she’d put her money in a Nigerian bank, insist that the local PD recruit solely from the Mexico City Police Academy, or, if hurt stop in at the urgent care clinic staffed by graduates of the Addis Abbaba School of Veterinary and Medical Science. Stupid questions, of course. Of course she wouldn’t. She’s a restaurant diversity fan.
If “diversity” had a real, actual difference, other than language and color, you would have to be very careful about it. Cultures vary, as Thomas Sowell said, and differences have consequences. You might like the academic emphasis of schools whose kids are mostly Asian. In our system, before we moved, a public housing system went up. Only bus that needs a cop full time has that on its run. And there have been, according to some of my wife’s former colleagues, fifteen or sixteen fights in the HS last year, all involving kids from the public housing project. Each of those cases is “diverse” from the standard view of how schools are. The result for your daughter would be different.
Don’t make your kid walk point in the culture wars. She isn’t old enough.
Trying to fix a local school is a fool’s game. Public schools are designed to be impregnable to parental input. And, if you put in five years of effort to succeed in something, that means for five years you haven’t succeeded and your kid isn’t getting the benefits of your success. You’ll get tired of trying before the local school gets tired of resisting.
totus commented on Aug 15 11 at 11:23 pmuse those school vouchers! the one with Benjamin’s picture on the front.
macphisto commented on Aug 15 11 at 11:28 pmyou ought not to be living in a neighborhood with dubious schools for your own amusement in the first place; you ought to be living in a place with decent schools for your childrens’ sake. you can drive to the diversity you cherish with much greater ease than dragging children to schools thirty miles away on a daily basis.
glenn commented on Aug 15 11 at 11:33 pmIf you decide to send “C” to the local school you may reconsider later when she gets to play “Knockout King”
Brian Gulino commented on Aug 15 11 at 11:34 pmDo you think your neighbors are the “deserving poor” or the “pathological poor”? Hard to admit that poor people have more violent kids. Easy to see though. Spend two or three hours at the school yard fence at recess at your local school. Spend the same amount of time at the far away school. If you feel that your kid will not be going to school scared every day, send them to the local school.
I think you will decide to send the kid to the far away good school. Good schools have their own set of pathologies though, including doing a lot of stuff just to please parents. Don’t underestimate the stultifying effect of a boring commute on a child’s development. Busing or long car rides suck for little kids.
Best decision is home schooling with a parent coop. Start or find some parents willing to teach a group of kids every day. Best thing for the kids.
Katie commented on Aug 15 11 at 11:35 pmWe never thought we’d do it, but we “went first” and as scary as it was we never looked back. We live in Charlestown, MA, home of Ben Afflek’s, The Town. Also, one of the hearts if the “busing” issue that roiled this city. Four of us found each other and we heard from another four who were like us, met some teachers we liked and said “what the hell!”. Fast forward 8 years, the neighborhood school has waitlists and the concern is not whether or not to risk it, but what to do if you don’t get in. The school had to expand accommodate growing demand 3 years ago. It’s been an amazing experience. We have seen all the middle class locals whose parents left the local schools in the 70′s bring their children back. Unfortunately, the Catholic schools are no longer as good as they once were. I have made a lot of friends along the way. It was (and remains) a great experience, but:
We live in MA and our public schools are the best in the country. That makes it easier.
A lot is expected of parents and burn out is inevitable but…I don’t think I’d trade the experience. I was there this afternoon after having sworn off the place to help with “Navy Day”. Every year 75 enlisted personnel in Officer’s Training School donate 4 hours of their training to our school. It doesn’t get any better than that!
Give it a try. You won’t be sorry.
Katie
Fletcher commented on Aug 15 11 at 11:46 pmThe paticular area of the school district in which you live isn’t diverse, but is the school that your child would attend a diverse school?
Cowboy commented on Aug 15 11 at 11:48 pmIf you can afford the parochial or private school, do the parochial or private school. That’s a no-brainer no matter where you live. It is simply in you kids’ best interest. If not, homeschool if you can. If you can’t do that, find out which public school you can get into is best and get your children there. If you are stuck with a bad public school and no transfer possible, move asap.
This matter involves your childrens’ best interest, and their best interest is to obtain the best education possible. That is the only consideration and the overriding consideration.
Katie commented on Aug 15 11 at 11:49 pmP.S. We walk to school for as long as the weather cooperates as does half to 2/3rds of the families that attend the school. This has been one of the best experiences we’ve had with the school. A “community” school really feels that way when you all meet up on your way to school.
Ann commented on Aug 15 11 at 11:49 pmThis is such a depressing conversation–why should you have to choose? Why can’t all neighborhood schools be better?
Actually, I can tell you why, and it’s even more depressing. I’m an adjunct professor of English; I’ve taught high school kids who took part in a high school /early college program. They were from a low income school and they were drastically undereducated. When I queried how they were taught grammar, I was told they were never taught it (which would explain why they were, for the most part, completely unable to construct grammatically correct sentences). The same teachers who didn’t teach them their grammar were asked to give one hour a month to help with the implementation of the early college initiative. They said they couldn’t–it wasn’t in their contract.
Denise commented on Aug 16 11 at 12:07 amYou do what you feel is best for your child. Community, neighborhood, and self-squirminess come after what is best for your kid. That said– it it’s not a BAD school, you’re probably fine.
kajey commented on Aug 16 11 at 12:23 amI haven’t had time to read all of the comments, but I have a (probably) interesting twist on this situation. I live in a small midwestern city (100,000) in what would be considered among its most upscale neighborhoods. Because the district has tried hard to balance its school populations, our neighborhood school has a 45% free and reduced lunch population, though it is still 70% white. Test scores are fine, (though I have to say that test scores are really just a proxy for income rather than an indicator of the quality of teaching–something to keep in mind as you compare schools) and we were very attracted to the fact that the school is a two block walk from our house. My spouse and I both had long school bus rides from our rural homes to our school and we loved the idea of our child being able to independently walk to school.
But we instead have chosen to send our child to a school in another neighborhood, where we have to drive him, to a school where the free and reduced lunch population is 80% and the non-white population (which is quite diverse) is over 80% as well. And it is the BEST decision we could have made. He’s in a dual language program, where half of the children are native speakers of Spanish, half are native speakers of English, and all the teachers are bilingual. The teachers are brilliant and highly skilled, the curriculum is challenging to our child, and he’s learning amazing things from his classmates (Spanish is probably the least of them) including a very different way to look at the world. One of the unexpected benefits of being in a high poverty school is that there is no one-upping each other over clothing and shoes and other material goods. These things are just not an issue. We love this school so much, that even though our child tested into a gifted program this year, we are keeping him there. He’s thriving in all measurable ways, and he’s bilingual to boot. He tells us that he ultimately plans to learn at least five languages and explore the world as a geologist searching for precious gems (this week, anyway). What more could a parent ask?
Obviously, our child benefits from having over-educated parents who read to him every night, etc, and so on. And he would reap those benefits at any school he would attend. The difference is in what he will learn from the other children, and what they can learn from him. I highly recommend that you visit the school and observe some classes, rather than assuming things based on what you see on paper. Your neighborhood school could be a gem like this, or it might not, but there’s only one way to know.
I would also add that I have taught in the type of private schools where your other children have attended, and there are risks at those places as much as at high poverty schools. In those schools, families can afford exotic vacations, expensive clothes and cars for 16 year olds. Those children usually don’t usually learn to use public transit. And I think whatever behavior issues you might fear in a less advantaged school exist in those wealthier schools as well, they are just manifested differently. Your girls will likely do well either way because they have you and Jon as parents enriching their home lives and instilling in them a love of learning. Good luck as you wrestle with your decision.
kajey commented on Aug 16 11 at 12:26 amYou also might be interested in the book “How to Walk to School” about parents who worked to improve their neighborhood school in Chicago.
priscilla curtains commented on Aug 16 11 at 12:34 amIf I may, let me give a perspective from the child’s perspective. I was one of these kids, in the 60′s. My parents lived in a sketchy part of town, although in the 60′s, sketchy did not mean drug dealers or random bullets. I started junior high in this part of town, and for the first 6 weeks of school, thought I would die, or in the very least, suffer personal harm in school. The other girls were terrifying, the boys were some other species entirely. I saw almost no one “like me” and “like me” had nothing to do with the color of my or their skin. One day I finally confessed my fears to my parents and to my surprise, they moved to another part of town, utilizing the GI Bill to buy a house in an area that was zoned for better schools. Or actually, it was the poorest section in an area that was populated by doctors and lawyers and other professionals. The difference this made in my life was profound. My parent’s held no beliefs other than I would go to college. I would not be overly concerned with other people’s opinions. They will not have to suffer the results of sending your child into a war zone due to some overly sensitive concerns. Terrible things happen in today’s schools. Don’t overly complicate it. Do what is best for your child.
MarshallsMommy commented on Aug 16 11 at 12:46 amGood question. As an educator with a toddler son, I’ve been thinking about this issue as well. I disagree with some commenters that the only issue is where she will get the best education. An education is more than reading and writing, it includes learning how to work in groups and trying new things and learning about those who are different than you. In many ways, the neighborhood school might give your daughter the better eduacation. It comes down to this: I can teach my son the basics. What I cannot teach him is how to to realize that there are many different people in the world if I send him to a homegenous school. He’ll be a good reader at 7 regardless of where I send him to school, but will he be comfortable playing with and talking to kids who don’t look or sound the same as him?
Further, someone commented that your daughter is too young to be involved in the school politics. While I do not advocate using C as a pawn, I do think kids learn from what we do. If I tell my son that our neighborhood is great, but send him out of the neighborhood for school, what lesson is he really learning? If a school is unsafe, I wouldn’t hesitate to pull my child from the class. Before enroling her, I would also make sure I sat in classes, watched transitions during the day and talked to teachers in the early grades to make sure they are fantastic.
Dee commented on Aug 16 11 at 12:48 am“2) Teachers quality trumps everything” — I just barely skimmed your comments – dead on my feet — but I didn’t see this mentioned much or maybe I just missed it . You can have a horrible principal — and it does happen — but it’s the TEACHER who can make/break the deal. You can have an outstanding principal — but it’s the TEACHER who makes/breaks the deal. We KNOW that she will “get” what she needs from home, from you and Jon. There is zero doubt that parental involvement will not be lacking in any shape form or fashion. A dedicated teacher is what you search for……just my two cents.
bub commented on Aug 16 11 at 12:54 amListen to the Scandinavian describe the situation in her home country. That system is the best that progressive political views have been able to produce. Surely you must realize that one possible solution to the contradiction you’ve identified is to modify or even abandon your political views. They don’t seem to actually reflect the values you live by. Do you need somebody to tell you that rejecting progressive politics doesn’t make you a bad person? It doesn’t make you a bad person.
Alternatively, if you’re looking for support from avowed progressives who shun public schools, you must realize that you will find it in abundance. I suspect, though, you might be troubled by that.
kajey commented on Aug 16 11 at 12:57 amYou might also enjoy the book “How to Walk to School” by parents in Chicago who worked with the principal to improve their neighborhood school.
Laura commented on Aug 16 11 at 1:49 amMy parents moved us from good schools in suburbia to bad schools in a rural area. This move coincided with my upper elementary and junior high years, and the school was simply dreadful. My overcrowded classrooms included everybody, from Down Syndrome to gifted, with mimeographed worksheets galore for everybody. My parents felt that they had made great sacrifices by changing jobs and moving away from the Big City and its drug problems (although we had lived in a nice suburban area) so they did NOT want to hear our complaints about the schools, no matter how legitimate our grievances were. The school motto should have been, “If we let YOU do it, we’d have to let EVERYBODY do it.” It was run like a prison.
After three years, we moved back to the swankiest suburb of the town we had left, and I was hopelessly behind, especially in math. Those three years in the bad rural school were the worst years of my life, and combined with the difficulties I had trying unsuccessfully to get back on track in high school, it left me with huge problems with authority and a hatred of school. I sent my own children to private schools despite the financial hardship it imposed. I have since spoken to a number of other people who attended rotten schools that their parents thought were “just fine,” and many of these people had experiences similar to mine, or even worse. When we complained, or laughed about the school, my father would say, “if you read every book in the school library, you would have a good education.” But as my brother pointed out, the school’s regimented classrooms where you had to pay attention to the teacher at all times plus the busywork class and homework assignments meant that there was little time to read. Honestly, we would have learned more from watching television at home.
How are your two younger children going to feel about being sent to a gritty urban school when the eldest three went to a top-notch private school? I understand the problem with not living near your child’s school, because at one point I lived 49 miles from the school my children attended, and if I had just gotten done with 10 or 12 years of the school run you have described, I would be looking for alternatives, too. Spend a few days volunteering at your local school. Pay attention to what goes on in the kindergarten rooms AND what is going on with the 5th and 6th graders. Talk privately to as many of the older children as you can and ask them if they are learning a lot, if they are happy there, etc. No doubt they will be busy all day, but if art is just gluing stuff to a paper plate, and the entire science curriculum consists of garbage recycling in theory and practice, your child will be shortchanged if she attends there. My children did spend two years in a highly rated public elementary, and it was pretty bad. The school was well-maintained and colorful, and the teachers seemed motivated, for the most part, but it was a one-size-fits-all curriculum with a phony gifted and talented overlay. By dumbing everything down, every child can be a winner!
Be careful not to wait too late to transfer your daughter to parochial school, as lots of other parents will be trying to do the same thing, and some parochial schools will refuse to take kids who have spent too much time in the public schools due to academic AND behavioral issues. Also, it frequently happens that a parochial school will have big years and small years for enrollment. By the time your daughter is in second grade, see how crowded St. Joseph’s is with second graders, and if it is pretty tight, put her on the waiting list immediately and enroll her as soon as a place comes up.
Bill commented on Aug 16 11 at 1:59 amWe had our daughter in a regular, small-town school. We moved, and got a house in the best school district in the state (Ok). Suddenly, she dropped to a C-d student and lost interest in school.
The local school (white, middle-class etc.) had no signs of trouble. The standards were low though, and we did not see the trouble coming. I can’t imagine what you are getting with an urban culture that rejects education in the later years. (I volunteer in inner-city ministries – I’m not going from stereotypes).
The school you are thinking of sending your daughter to is underserved. Whether that be from racism, neglect, poor attitudes of local parents or anything else, you are making a mistake to put her in less than he best you can. The real problems don’t come out until 8th grade or later, and it is nearly impossible to recover at that point. I appreciate your concern for the neighborhood school, but your own should come first.
I’ve followed your postings about your son Henry, and it sounds a lot like my early life. My heart goes out to you. I don’t believe you could have done anything that would change things – it was all up to Henry. Some of us live, some don’t. I wish I’d had a mom like you -would have helped. I have a good life – wife, kids income, career, post-grad degree, and I am grateful to have lived through that time. If it helps, you were doing the right things.
That said, don’t do anything iffy with this last one. The first grade or two may not make a difference, but they may. When a child realizes they can’t compete later, it changes their response. My daughter gave up on school, did the minimum and graduated. One Mediocre semester of college, and 10 years of being a waitress. She now has 4 children (1-6) and s back in nursing school pulling straight A’s. Much like her moms and my own story. Start her in the best school or her and keep her here until high school or later.
2i7356t2rgfvci commented on Aug 16 11 at 2:05 amI’m not exactly sure what you are saying. If you want to know if it’s okay for your kids to be the only white kids in a black school I can tell you that my friends in college who grew up that way were behaviorally not like other white kids. They had odd mannerisms and patterns of speech. The made most people feel nervous to be around. I think they would be likely to have probems in job interviews.
Otherwise can you look at the graduation rate and college acceptence rates? If the schools are not graduating kids or sending them to college I wouldn’t send my kids to those schools.
If you can afford private schools I think you should send your kids to private schools instead of public schools if there is a teachers union in you city. Union public school teachers don’t have the same pressure to do a good job and administratiors don’t have the same ability to hire and fire the best teachers as private schools.
If you know the public schools are great then send your kids there. If the public schools are not great the send your kids to private schools. The environment in the school is going to be one of the most important factors in the development of your childs personality. Don’t let the undisciplined environment in a poor public school damage your child.
conversefive commented on Aug 16 11 at 2:32 amWhat a bunch of snobs.
Augustus commented on Aug 16 11 at 2:40 amI first have to point out that the gold standard for K-12 education is home schooling. But not every family is capable of that due to any number of reasons (both parents working, parents not feeling capable, etc.) We did not home school our kids, but quite a few couples that we know have home schooled their kids and it has turned out great for them. And the national statistics show that this is not a fluke.
That said, I think that your criteria for choosing a schooling option should put your child’s needs at the top (after making sure you can afford your chosen option). After all, this is *your child*.
We had our children in public elementary school (through grade 4) in the east side of the SF Bay Area. It was not a highly ranked school by any means, but it had a good teacher-student ratio. Our son had some particular educational needs, and we were able to work with the teachers to see that these needs were addressed while being part of the normal track classes. The diversity of the school was all well and good, but this flexibility of the teaching staff was the deciding factor in continuing with the school. Top priority was that the school offer an environment in which our children could learn.
When it came time to consider middle school (beginning at grade 5), my wife gathered some data and we determined that there was no way that we would be able to work with the middle school teachers in the same way. Larger classes, etc. Plus a lot more bullying, gangs, illegal drug use, etc. Fortunately we were able to afford to send our kids to a private (christian) school for 5-12.
Father of Two commented on Aug 16 11 at 2:40 amMy kids go to a very mixed school, diverse in every possible way, but if it were a crapsack unionized hellhole there’s no way I’d let them go.
Go to your local school yourself. Put your own eyes on it. Talk to some teachers. Don’t let on that you’re a rich, white liberal wallowing in fashionable guilt — your goal isn’t to prove your progressive moral superiority but to get the low-down on where your child will spend half her waking hours for the next 12 years. Investigate.
Low test scores might be a sign that most of the students at the school just aren’t all that bright. There’s an element of self-selection here so it isn’t classist or racist or whatever taboo adjective you want to label it to recognize that maybe the doctors’ and lawyers’ kids are attending schools in their parents’ neighborhoods (or have been whisked off to private school).
The possibility that the school is statistically skewed toward below-average students is, in fact, its only hope of passing your inspection. The low scores for the school can be a result of only two possible conditions: below-average students or below-average teachers. The former may be acceptable; the latter certainly is not.
Now for the good news: my own children attend a school whose below-average scores are a result of a skewed student population distribution. I know this because I checked; controlled for IQ my children’s school is in my state’s top 20%. Give us a normal distribution and we would embarrass even the upscale private schools.
The gifted program here is extremely demanding and rigorous, its extracurricular spillover at least as demanding as sports or marching band. Kids are pushed hard, even (and especially) at the top. This is something I’ve only seen in private schools specifically geared toward the gifted. I love my kids’ school, and I wouldn’t have them go anywhere else.
I am not making a political statement. I didn’t send my kids to an “underperforming” public school because of some misguided belief in “social justice” but because it was what was best for my children. I would never play politics with something so important.
Check your local school out for yourself and give the school an even chance — but no better than that. Look at how the school treats gifted children. That was my biggest clue that my children had a good school despite its below-average test scores. If your school doesn’t measure up, forget the politics: whether or not your kids should attend public school depends on the school.
Chris commented on Aug 16 11 at 3:03 amYou send her to the best school you can afford. Period. This is a no-brainer.
toadold commented on Aug 16 11 at 3:29 amIn all probability your “neighborhood school” is not controlled by the people who send their kids there. In other words sending your child their will not make any difference to the school. Check out the rules and regulations that teachers have to follow in the school district. Look at the administrative over head, i. e. in the public schools the trend is more paper pushers to teachers to comply with state and federal regs to get money. If you pick ten people at random from your neighborhood and ask them who is on the school board, who heads it , and where do the public school teachers send their kids you’ll get a lot of “I don’t no’s.” Socialization from peers is over rated when the peers are undisciplined, unloved, and unwanted animals.
ed commented on Aug 16 11 at 5:16 amGood Lord, let’s cut to the chase… This public school you are wondering if you should send you kid to…is it majority black?
hadley commented on Aug 16 11 at 6:22 amYou owe it to your kids to send them to the best school you can afford. Period.
Dadofhomeschoolers commented on Aug 16 11 at 6:46 amI find your article fascinating. Valid concerns to be sure, and in the same situation I think I would have some of the same concerns.
But the fascinating thing is that you do not even give thought to an option that might answer most of the concerns that you have.
Teach her yourself, at home.
I just felt the eyeroll and hostility. Another one of those fundamentalist crackpots. Put that love for diversity that you have into practice and hear me out.
I don’t care what school she goes to, good bad or indifferent, there will be good kids and there will be kids that are doing things that you would not have your daughter doing. What are YOU doing to teach her how to choose friends that will help her make wise choices with her life.
I am sure that you have spent enough time with your daughter to know what she likes and dislikes, why not use those likes and dislikes and make learning fun?
I will bet a fried chicken tv dinner that you are already doing what you need to, fomenting an interest in the world around her, reading to her, helping her to read, colors, counting, what did we see on our walk, buy a cheap microscope, or strong magnifying glass, this is fun, and the early years are the easy years.
“but what about my career?” I hear you wail, yea, what about your precious career? I find the picture of Ms. Winehouse in the corner next to where I am typing to be an interesting juxtaposition, do you think HER mother would give up her career, if she would have known then what she knows now? For the opportunity to help her daughter learn how to make wiser choices? What about ssssocialization? What is it about cooping your kid up in an institution with 25 or 30 other kids the same age and that’s socialization? El toro poo poo. Take her to a retirement home, the people there would love her, and she would learn real socialization, how to get along with everybody.
Be a real rebel, rather than trying to fit in with the crowd. She’s YOUR daughter, your own flesh and blood, and most importantly, your message to the future about what you think is important.
Sure send her to school in three or four years, they will go by quickly, but that will be after you have helped her establish who she knows she is, and will be better equipped to know who will be a help to her, and who would drag her down.
Just for the record, I have two homeschoolers, the first one leaves next week for electrical engineering school on all but a free ride, and the second one is a sophmore in high school, a serious student of piano, and is in demand as the sound tech for a lot of the local bands. Hard? yes, worth it? man, just last night we sat for two hours just talking, about choices, about interests, what struck them funny.
Yes, it is so worth it.Dad of homeschoolers
SL commented on Aug 16 11 at 6:57 amProgressive pieties, hipster hand-wringing and first-world problems.
CatoRenasci commented on Aug 16 11 at 6:58 amYour most important responsibility is to your child and her best interests, not to some ideal that children from vastly different socio-economic backgrounds can be plopped down together in a school and all get along famously and sing ‘kumbaya’.
If you can afford it, you owe your last child the same school your older three kids attended: safe, solid moral values without being fundamentalist (presumably in an Episcopal school), solid academics (the early years are most important, fall behind then and you’ll be behind for life), and children from backgrounds similar to hers.
The only issue seems to be your desire to have her be ‘local’ and save the driving. Understandable, but it puts you first and your child second.
Children are – as you may well recall from school – brutally honest with each other and there is always an informal hierarchy among children in a school. White kids, especially white kids from an upper-middle class social background, are usually at a severe disadvantage in a lower class, predominantly minority, school where the very values that would make them fit in at a middle class or upper-middle class school make them targets and victims. Teachers may (or may not) try to do something about this, but the informal hierarchies in schools are far more important than anything the faculty does in your child’s experience.
Experimenting with yourself and your husband living in a gentrifying neighborhood is good – it’s putting your money where your mouth is.
Experimenting with your child in substandard schools in that environment is parental malpractice.
Janetoo commented on Aug 16 11 at 7:00 amThis CRACKS me up. I am a conservative who lives in a neighborhood that was close to a great neighborhood school but back when my kid was little, they still bussed to a less than good school. (the police were called 17 times to the school in a year – for ELEMENTARY school.) We could not afford to move to the neighborhood that let her go to the school that was actually CLOSE to us, so we decided on the nearby magnet. Unfortunately, that was not much better. One of her school mates taught a her game called “getting drunk” (this is kindergarten) where they would drink from the water fountain and then act funny all day. This was just one incident of many. The school was evenly split between people like you, trying to live their values and then the kids that were … difficult. Frankly, I could go on an on about this “experiment” I tried with my kid. I finally said ENOUGH and enrolled her in the Catholic school (they had ONE opening which I snatched up) and she then had a great education with average, not exceptional, families and kids. I paid $5000 a year for the kind of education I got in a public school in the 1960′s. No bells or whistles, just readin’ writn’ and ‘rithmethic. Eventually, the bussing laws were changed and she went to the public HS that we could see from our roof and it was a great HS – because of the IB program, it was of a higher quality.
You should not experiment with your kid. I still live in the same neighborhood. I love the old homes, but it is fading, even though the schools are now acceptable. I am conservative and I wish progressives would walk the walk and spend the money they spend on their $300,000 homes in the developments renovating the houses in my neighborhood and populating the local school and going to the park down the street and chasing away the creeps by their sheer numbers. PLUS, I look at it as a green issue. Why are they building NEW HOMES and destroying the environment? They should recycle old houses. But, few do. One of my professors when I was getting my masters, who was SO PROGRESSIVE, Birkenstocks – the whole nine yards, lived on three acres in a bright, new shiny house that she had to drive 30 mins to campus, when she could have lived in my old Queen Ann and walked 50 yards to campus.
Anyway – in the end – your kid is more important. Other Progs won’t do what you want. They never do, don’t sacrifice your kid.
The Madison Project commented on Aug 16 11 at 7:06 amSeriously, could you take a step back and listen to yourself? Do you support progressive policies that have reduced public schools to warehouses for parents who don’t have your options? Why did you move into your current neighborhood? Because it was cool or because you told yourself you wanted to make a difference, as long as it wasn’t too icky?
Gotta love the progressives that want to be the overseers of everyone else’s life, as long as they have other options – frankly, my dear, what an insanely pompous whiny blog – and your neighbors, that one would be the ones that you like actually know – appear to be just as whiny, “good enough for the little people”-progressive types. Jeez.
Anonymous commented on Aug 16 11 at 7:23 amAh, yes: “Social Justice! But, send my child to THAT school… there are [gasp] Black People there!” (diversity for thee, but not for me and mine).
Edmund Dantes commented on Aug 16 11 at 7:45 am“I’ve come to believe that having the school be located in the same neighborhood where your kids live.”
If only liberals had believed in that idea 40 years ago, the schools wouldn’t be in such terrible shape today. We deliberately undermined, then destroyed, the idea of neighborhood schools for the sake of some other, noneducational goal. We bussed children for hours away from their neighborhood schools, and in so doing ripped the fabric of community from the school itself. It didn’t work, now we are trying to rebuild, at a far higher cost.
Robert commented on Aug 16 11 at 7:56 amOur local schools are funded with more dollars per student than the local private schools tuition per semester. They are NOT underfunded, though that drum is beaten continually. The Mexican nationals who have walked up here to live, (which would include any Mexican with any sense at all, given the situation there), think the local schools are a miracle. Since most of their economy us under the radar, the local public schools really ARE free.
I get their kids and the locals in Junior College here. The black kids can’t read or write after 12 years of education. The Mexicans are only partially assimilated and speak spanish to each other. The homeschoolers shine like stars. The white kids are immune to education after public schools, though brilliant at cheating, faking results and gaming the system.
We’ve just built brand new schools throughout our whole system at enormous cost. They look like upscale prisons. 40% of the high schoolers who enter don’t graduate.
Our semester is just beginning. The first meetings is all about the the constant remedial work we have to do to get the kids up to some functional level. I’m supposed to be teaching photography but the administration really wants me to teach reading….in the photo sessions.
Whatever we are doing, it isn’t working that well.
cbi commented on Aug 16 11 at 7:59 amWe decided to send our kids to the local public schools. It took a bit more involvement, perhaps, to ensure they didn’t (usually) get stuck with a teacher who couldn’t teach, but it was possible. We also became very active in at least one extra activity at the school: Destination ImagiNation, band parents, etc.
Others have commented on the hypocrisy, etc., of ‘progressives’ and their backward policies which help limit the choices of poor people, so I won’t say more on that now.
Gmommy commented on Aug 16 11 at 8:00 amIt sounds like you are asking if it would be hypocritical to send your little one to a non-neighborhood school. One definition of hypocrisy is pretending to be someone you are not.
I’d start by asking myself, who am I? What are my core beliefs? What are my priorities? How important is my child’s experience? Why did I choose to live in this neighborhood? Can my family being involved in a not very good school make any difference in the overall performance of the school? What constitutes a good education?
My own kids are long out of the public school environment, and it was a mixed bag – a magnet school with a great reputation ended up being mostly positive for one child and a big mistake for another. I don’t think there is any one answer, but another commenter brought up the most important aspect – the parents and their involvement. That doesn’t mean your child will be perfect, but in the long run the lessons you have already taught run deep.
EMF commented on Aug 16 11 at 8:04 amYou used the word “alot”. Pathetic. What difference does the race of your neighbors make when you are illiterate yourself?
I moved out of my hip, racially, economically diverse neighborhood after having to call the police over 20 times in one year. Some economic redistribution should be left to the trained professionals in DC, not handled by rank amateurs with guns.
kgranju commented on Aug 16 11 at 8:22 amEd writes: “Good Lord, let’s cut to the chase… This public school you are wondering if you should send you kid to…is it majority black?”
Actually Ed, it’s not. In fact, while our neighborhood is – as I noted – socially and economically diverse, it’s not racially diverse in the least. The public elementary school for which I am zoned is overwhemingly white. – Katie
kgranju commented on Aug 16 11 at 8:24 am2i7356t2rgfvci writes: “…If you want to know if it’s okay for your kids to be the only white kids in a black school …”
That’s actually not what I was asking at all, and in fact, the neighborhood in which we live is not racially diverse at all. It’s quite homogenous. And the public elementary school for which we are zoned is overwhemingly white. – Katie
Milard Speck commented on Aug 16 11 at 8:55 amBy all means sacrifice your children to secure your liberal pedigree.
Stacy in NJ commented on Aug 16 11 at 9:19 amAfter 8 years of homeschooling my eldest, I’ll be sending him to the “diverse” high school in our new neighborhood.
Here’s the deal. While the school has a mix of black, white, hispanic, and asian students, it is still segregated by race and socio-economic status, not because the community or school administrators are racist or classist, but because the performance of the individual students requires academic segregation.
Our school has two schools within the school – a science focused academy and a classical academy. Both these academies are 90% white or asian. The honors and AP classes are filled with not entirely but mostly white and asian students.
The idea the sending your daughter to a racially and socio-economically mixed school is going to make her part of the community is not accurate. Within the school experience you and she will gravitate towards the people who share your attitudes about education and parenting (your values in otherwords). And, while she’ll be educated in the same building with folks that are “different”, her experience will differ from theirs significantly.
The idea that diverse schools are really diverse is a falsehood in most cases. It a pretensions some folks adopt to mask cultural realities.
Do yourself a favor and look at the statistical information for the neighborhood school your considering provided via No Child Left Behind. NCLB breaks down performance by race and socio-economics for each school. I’ll bet you’ll find that the performance of the white students at this disadvantaged school closely mirrors the performance of the schools in the more affluent (and higher performing) areas. And, the school “average” is depressed because the the lower performing black and hispanic populations.
Leslie commented on Aug 16 11 at 9:43 amWe sent William to Belle Morris for a year. He had a wonderful teacher, and I loved the diversity there. It was also fun being able to walk to school to pick him up each afternoon. If I were you, I would probably send her to your zoned school for kindergarten and see how it goes. You can make a change later if you are unhappy. After that, there’s always First Lutheran–walking distance for you, so it would have that community school feel. And as someone pointed out above, St. Joseph is not far away. There’s no need to feel that it’s West Knoxville or nothing. I will say though that my experience with Belle Morris was very different in terms of community–the parents were just not involved the way they are at private schools, or probably at more affluent public schools. William had a party and invited his entire class, and one child came. None of the parents–NONE–even responded to the invitation. So if you are looking for community, I am not sure you will find it in an inner city public school.
Anne commented on Aug 16 11 at 9:46 amIt´s good that it´s been established that this is not a question of whether the school is racially mixed or not. I am a strong supporter of getting high quality education but my concern would be that if you send your child to an out-of-zone school (be it private or not) whether you might then inadvertently be teaching your child that the kids who go to the neighborhood school aren´t “good enough” to attend her school and that she is somehow “cut above” everyone else in her neighborhood because she goes to a school where there the children are richer and the school is more “elite” than the local school.
Over here in Scandinavia (yup..I´m a Scandinavian) I attended the local public school which was on of the worst one´s in town when I started (as I stated previously my family didn´t have a choice of sending me elsewhere) and while my school wasn´t racially diverse it was socioeconomically diverse and I believe it gave me a lot to attend a diverse school. Thankfully, through the effort of the PTA association and the arrival of a top-notch principal my school rapidly progressed and when I went unto high school, my school was considered one of the best one´s in town and has kept that status since then. I was lucky to have commited teachers and left school with a lot of good things and a good solid education that help me maintain a high GPA in high school. But there were still plenty of problems concerning bullying, low funding, abysmal housing situation and what not.
So as I´ve stated before – it´s a luxurious problem to be able to choose from an abundance of schools for your child and send it to a school in a different zone. it´s a luxury most of us over here in Scandinavia don´t enjoy.
Crimson Wife commented on Aug 16 11 at 10:22 amThe problem you’re facing is that your liberal ideology is clashing with your feelings of responsibility as a mom. As someone who is fairly libertarian, I believe that funding should follow the child and that parents should be able to use that funding at the school of the family’s choice- traditional public, public charter or magnet, private, or for enrollment in an independent study program. That way it isn’t just the wealthy who have choice in where their children attend school, but everyone. And holding this set of beliefs leaves me with absolute *NO* guilt for not enrolling my children in our underperforming neighborhood school. It’s not that the school is good for thee but not for me, but that I think it isn’t good enough for ANYONE.
Susan McFadyen commented on Aug 16 11 at 10:58 amInteresting conundrum; I sent our 3 kids to a great suburban, “shiny” elementary, and then to private through high school, then got my credential and now teach in an urban elementary with lowish scores and plenty of interesting “demographics”. Here’s the thing: The teachers at the public school will work their tails off for all their students, your kid will have a huge advantage over the kids coming from a background where there is less emphasis placed on education; however, YOU will have to be the one that pushes and challenges your kid, since the teachers have to focus so much on pulling up the “basic” and “far below basic” kids. Her experience will be “top of the class” without much competition or challenge. SO, I recommend you dive into that PTA to help steer the direction of the school, and then, to finally solve the problem, join the education reform movement that would free up your local school to truly compete with other schools to attract the nouveau neighbors on your block. The current system is broken; let the free market help fix it!
cath young commented on Aug 16 11 at 11:11 amWhen we lived in a similar area (though ours was under going the reverse of gentrification), we did start out putting our kids in the public school. During those early years, it was not an issue. Kids are like kittens when they are little, in my opinion, and they all do pretty well together.
When it comes around to middle school, that is when the different socio-econ backgrounds start to kick into the way the kids are. Also, this is where some schools have better academic opportunities than others.
We ended up sending all of our kids to private school once the oldest hit high school age because it was just too difficult making up the academic and extra curricular gaps in the public school. It made life a lot easier. You do have the stats on your side too, though as you well know, if your kid is the exception in the group, it is 100% for you. But when your kids are with a crowd where 100% go to college, there is a big push for them to take that path, whereas if that is not the case, the chances are greater that they can end up hanging around those kids without such aspirations.
MemphisDweller commented on Aug 16 11 at 11:36 amI’m in same boat. It’s about the culture even more than the educational programs. Those cultural influences come from classmates at the earliest grades. Protect your children as much as possible from the learned characteristics that make people poor: victimology, “reverse-racism,” illegitimacy, shunning academics, crude and criminal behavior, etc. Saying that exposure to any and all cultures is good is a fool’s game.
whatyouwant commented on Aug 16 11 at 11:43 amThe test score thing always cracks me up. Do you want your child surrounded by kids with higher scores or lower? Is there any incentive to work harder if you’re in that situation? And what do test scores really mean?
I grew up and now live in areas where there’s no such thing as choice, other than one neighborhood school over another or Catholic school. Catholic school would have cost money and we would’ve had to provide our own transportation which would have impacted us financially. Additionally, the Catholic school in town is very small and doesn’t have all the resources the public schools do.
During this time before C starts school, I’d investigate my choices and talk to people. But probably, I’d ultimately decide on the neighborhood school. It’s what is most familiar to me and in my opinion, you don’t make things better by standing on the outside griping.
I do understand the dilemma. You don’t want to make the “wrong” choice. But do your research and maybe you’ll come to some peace about your decision.
MemphisDweller commented on Aug 16 11 at 11:44 amI left out “mysoginistic.” Please add to my last post.
MemphisDweller commented on Aug 16 11 at 11:45 amI left out “misogynistic.” Please add to my above post.
paige commented on Aug 16 11 at 11:48 amYou child is not an expression of your political/social views. Your child does not have the wisdom and experience to view her experiences through your belief system. She is an innocent, helpless child who can be bullied, terrified, coerced, and indoctrinated by all that she comes in contact with when she is away from you for 7 hours a day. Then to also encourage her to be friends with those you deem “different” will become who she is because she will be finding who she is in an unsafe, substandard environment. You cannot throw beliefs, progressive views and money at a school and put little “C” from a privileged background and I assure you the she will be the privileged one in that environment and change a socio/economic class of people ~ translated “the poor blacks/hispanic/white trash that attend that school because they have to because “Auntie” or Grandma who has custody can read well enough to fill out the public school transfer application. Or really doesn’t care because education is not important to them, getting the brats out of the house is. That is half of the classroom that little “C” will be sitting with and learning new words like “shut your “F” mouth or better yet “show me your panties” I am sorry to be so harsh, I really am, but this is the reality that your white guilt will put your child into 185 days a year, 7 hours a day. Bad company corrupts good character. It was true when you were growing up and it is true when now with your little innocent girl that you won’t be there to explain that little Leroy or Shaniqua didn’t have breakfast this morning or dinner last night because her druggie guardians used the food stamps to buy drugs and she is wear the same clothes because no cares if she/he is clean. And that mark on their face is where they were hit with the belt and told to shut the “F” up on the way to school when they said they didn’t feel good, arriving too late to eat the free breakfast because the bus broke down, thus making little Leroy mean to her. Because he doesn’ t know any other way.
If you want to change that scenario, sending your child to sit next to the underprivileged, so they can see how real parents are suppose to treat their kids isn’t going to inspire little Leroy or Shaniqua to do better in school to have a better life, it is going to inspire them to make “C”‘s life miserable because they don’t understand why she has that and they dont’ because they are little kids too.
The way to change that is demand change through legislation relating to children, giving the power to hold the parents/guardians of these children responsible for their actions or putting the kids in safe environments like orphanages and group homes that instill character and community instead of hiding them in foster homes that treat them sometimes as bad as their own homes did. Change will come when a child doesn’t feel hopeless and can see that education is their future and responsibility and a well fed, cared for child is the only child who can see that, then you can get rid of half of the behaviors that cause problems, because that is the real truth, it is not the teaching that causes the schools to perform badly, it is that the students can not and don’t want to learn, they want to live like the adults around them and if those adults are violent, partying, no responsibly kind of parents then that is what the little kids want to be because every child wants the person taking care of them to love them and if they are like them then maybe in their little heads that person will love them.
You love your child and put her in the best school you can. That is your responsibility, then become an advocate for that neighborhood school’s children, because the school is a building, the real school is the kids in it and the adults who take care of them.
marjorie commented on Aug 16 11 at 11:49 amman, some nutty comments here. what else is new.
i love renee’s words, early in the comments thread. she posts for me.
all you folks saying “do what’s best for your child” — you’re not reading carefully. katie isn’t sure what’s best for her child! she’s weighing quality of education and the value of not having to drive all over the place, both of which are important and lead to different choices. there’s no easy answer for “best.”
i will add, as a parent at a diverse neighborhood school in NYC, one that is not on the radar of parents outside my hood, i agree that having a NEIGHBORHOOD school is huge. everyone lives close by. i also love the economic diversity here — as renee said, i think it makes my kids less materialistic. to the parents talking about bullying being worse in low-income public schools, that is not my experience. i have friends with kids in private school and in tonier public schools in whiter neighborhoods, and it can be seriously, viciously Gossip Girl over there. the assumption that lower-income means violent bullying is wrong-headed (and yes, tinged with racism, i think). i love the values my kids are learning, and thus far my kids are nothing like the stereotype of uber-sophisticated, blithely isolationist white NYC kids.
the culture of the school matters so much — does the administration value collaboration/community as much as it does test scores? are teachers happy and do they feel supported by the administration? is there a core, involved group of parents, preferably a racially and economically diverse one?
i agree with indya — C and G will have good values and do well academically wherever they are b/c you and your hub will be very involved parents. but i would take indya up on her offer to hook you up with folks who love the school. i am blissfully in love with my kids’ school — with decent but not stratospheric test scores and a truly diverse population, which i think makes my kids better citizens of the world — and i am thankful for it every day.
LC commented on Aug 16 11 at 12:28 pmPersonally, I wouldn’t compromise my child’s education and I’d utilize the luxury of choice if I had the funds to do so. What I find unfortunate is that as progressives do just that, they continually come out against measures that would afford other families the same choice without requiring them to be of the same socioeconomic privilege. Competition, more school choice, charter schools, vouchers and parental control over where their kids attend school are essential to school improvement. I applaud the mom who lied about what district she lived in so that her kids could go to decent schools….she faced the same dilemma you face but didn’t have the resources to make an alternate decision without facing legal consequences. Her choice was brave.
Falshrmjgr commented on Aug 16 11 at 12:37 pmThere was never the option of a spontaneous “let’s call Susie or Joey and see if they want to pop over to play this afternoon” because Susie and Joey lived waaaaaaaaay on the other side of town, with most of the other kids who were in my kids’ classrooms. Also, because the schools my kids have attended have been so far away, we often get home much too late in the day, and it’s logistically challenging to attend weeknight activities there, like PTA meetings and ball games.
So while you love the hipster value of your diverse neighborhood, you self select to associate with those families who are in fact socially and economically your peers?
In other words, while you think its cool and edgy to live near all these “ethnically diverse” people (read poor and shady), you would never actually let them in your home or to play with your daughter.
There are two words for people like you, one is “hypocrite.” You figure out the other.
MemphisDweller commented on Aug 16 11 at 3:48 pmMy children are in a very racially diverse inner-city Catholic school (three whites in a class of about 17), and I have become close with many parents of their black friends. They are in perfect agreement that the neighborhood public schools are: a) unsafe, b) elementary school kids came home spouting foul-mouthed vulgarity and gang signs, and c) that classmates were already having sex at 12-13, and making babies and drawing public support at 16-17. Kids are supposed to learn what, exactly, in this broken and bankrupt cultural environment?
helen commented on Aug 16 11 at 4:21 pmWhenever I read discussions like these I think of that scene in Barton Fink where the John Goodman character is yelling at him about how he (Barton) was there for the book or the experience but that is where Goodman lives, that is his home. I really find it interesting that children of parents who choose transitional/diverse areas to live in Knoxville often end up going to schools where they are surrounded by (and thus their peers are) upper middle class so no real diversity in my book.
I live in probably a middle income suburban neighborhood. It is definitely diverse since we are surrounded by lots of apartments and lower income housing. We will go to our neighborhood schools even though there are better schools nearby. It is important to me actually.
However, I get the dilemma and I’m really not criticizing others choices. I don’t love the architecture of my burb at ALL but stay here for social reasons including going to our neighborhood school. I taught in an inner city ‘magnet’ school and I would not send my children there for various and sundry reasons. So if I lived in that district I would send my kids elsewhere.
I do predict though that you (Katie) will get into the magnet elementary (aren’t you zoned for it? I thought 4th and Gill was…??) and thus will have to either transfer out for middle or do private which is far enough down the road not to worry about it too much !
LordJiggy commented on Aug 16 11 at 5:19 pmRespectfully, I’m suggest you not sacrifice your kid to your good intentions. I was a military kid, moved around a lot, and military schools are great. Then I was dropped into a civilian school in the midst of forced busing, and frankly, it turned my middle and high school years into a long miserable abusive slog, where I was bullied and smacked around by the ghetto youth of color. It’s an experience from which I only just managed to emerge not virulently racist. (and, as a side note, the abuse I suffered at the hands of the youth of color is always discounted by Latte-Sipping NPR Listeners because I’m white, and I deserved it as a just reward for white privilege, or something)
If the schools are crummy, don’t put your kid there, period. Doesn’t matter if it’s crummy because black baby mamas are dumping their broods into the system for lack of anything better to do, or if the kids are coming from white supremacy meth labs. If the kids are jacked up…the school will be jacked up. You might help your kid grow into being a survivor, but I doubt you or she will feel better for it.
Father of Two commented on Aug 16 11 at 6:02 pmWho knew when you posted a question about where to send your kid to school you’d be inundated with completely unfounded accusations of racism?
Godwin’s Law needs an amendment …
miriam commented on Aug 16 11 at 6:20 pmGo to your neighborhood school. We were in the same predicament…although, I’m not completely sure if our neighborhood is actually gentrifying, or just mostly poor. In fact, when my kids were at the local elementary, 72% of the kids there were getting free or reduced lunch, well above the city average. That’s pretty poor, and it showed sometimes. Our PTO didn’t have the budget that some of the wealthier schools did. We had a harder time getting parent volunteers for some events.
BUT, nothing compares to walking to school. NOTHING. My kids were walkers to elementary, middle and now high school and it’s the best. Kids can just drop by after school because we’re on the way. I get to meet my kids’ friends and see them in my own house. My children have the independence of not having to call me to pick them up and drive them everywhere. There’s no “missing the bus.”
I also second the parent above who mentioned that children become less materialistic in a socio-economically diverse situation. Neither one of my kids had any idea about designer clothes or shoes or video games or anything like that until well into middle school and by then, they were too old to be seduced by it. I have one child who basically shops at Goodwill (age 16), and another (18) who will wear pretty much anything–Payless, Target, hand-me-downs, what have you.
Also, I will advise you to avoid putting too much stock in the school’s test scores. Remember that test scores do not indicate the quality of teaching, they merely indicate the quality of students at the school. If all the kids at the school are wealthy, the test scores will be higher. My kids’ elementary has been on the NCLB “in need of improvement” list for, oh, 6 years now.
If you’re looking at a magnet school, the test scores will be higher, because, although the parents might be poor, at least they have the knowledge and savvy to apply for the magnet school, which puts them ahead of the parents who don’t understand the system, or might be afraid to apply to a school.
If you can, look at how individual students are improving, which will tell you more about what the teachers are doing for individual children, rather than where the kids started out.
Look at the art on the walls, peek into the classrooms, ask to speak to the
Finally, it’s just elementary school. If you’re afraid the classwork will be too easy, maybe your daughter will be at the top of her class–great! If you find that your daughter learns the material easily–great! Less time on homework, and more time for playing, dancing, baseball, whatever she loves to do. Elementary school (or middle school for that matter) can be fun and enriching without being “challenging.”
Just how hard do we want school to be? Going to school with kids who live in her neighborhood will be a wonderful experience that she will remember forever. You will meet local parents, and run into them at the store, the post office, and at school events. Most importantly, your daughter will remember you and her father as parents who walked the walk, rather than just talked the talk, when it comes to appreciating diversity. This will make her want to live in a diverse neighborhood when SHE grows up. And isn’t that what we want for our children? To be comfortable with any type of person they might come across?
miriam commented on Aug 16 11 at 6:31 pmSorry, I hit enter while still revising! I meant to say, ask to speak to the PTO president–she will usually be a real cheerleader for the school and can introduce you to other parents who are involved and interested. And GET INVOLVED! Do all you can to improve the reputation of your neighborhood school. Go to Board of Ed meetings, meet the members of the Board and let them know what your school needs. Sometimes they just reminding.
Go to the newspaper with information about school events. Plan some Open Houses at private school registration times, so parents can see the wonderful things going on at your school. Once your school starts getting some good press, people might start re-thinking the private route and keep kids local.
Laura commented on Aug 16 11 at 7:26 pmDid Instapundit link to this post, or what? There some nasty, nutty comments.
I saw that Indya K. posted, you should start by talking to her. Visiting the school, talking to parents, and visiting the nearby private schools is smart, too.
Fwiw, when I lived in Knoxville, we figured we would send our son to Thackson, as we worked at UT. Now I live in a small college town with supposedly good schools, but I think the emphasis on standardized testing is weakening our school system, nationwide.
I am pretty much of the mind that I will do what is best for my kid, as best as I can figure out. He starts kindergarten this year, and is attending the public school across the street. If private school or homeschooling seem to be better options down the line, then we will do that.
KathrynT commented on Aug 16 11 at 8:14 pmI went to the local public school from K-5 and it was terrific. Wonderful teachers, good education and a diverse student body. My parents then transferred me to a Catholic school because the junior high I would have attended was in turmoil. Unfortunately, the Catholic school was in a rough area with many kids from troubled homes and I was miserable. I was made fun of for being a good student and not being interested in drinking and doing drugs at parties (and this was many years ago!) I thought I had died and gone to heaven when I finally got to high school (also a Catholic school.) The difference was night and day as the school had a diversity of students and I could find a place to fit in.
We sent our kids to the local K-8 public school as it was walking distance from our home and had a good reputation. I would have been happy with several of the public schools in our city but not all of them. We were pleased with the education the children received. Our local public high schools, unfortunately, do not have good reputations so we opted for private high school and I am glad we did. Too many kids we know who attended our public high schools ended up making poor decisions during their high school years. In short, public elementary school made sense for us but private high school seemed the best choice later on.
I would visit the schools you are considering and try and get a sense if they would be a good fit for “C.” Try to talk to parents whose children are in those schools and ask lots of questions. Test scores certainly aren’t everything but they do give you an idea of how well C’s peers would be doing academically.
Angie commented on Aug 16 11 at 8:18 pmI live in the 37917 zip code and my children go to public school. They went to private school until my H lost his job. I love the elem school and the Project Grad program is wonderful. Involvement in your child’s school and education at home is just as important. Having said that, I would love to be able to re-enroll my children in their old private, Christian school.
Rebecca Simmons commented on Aug 17 11 at 12:38 amWe too live in a Knoxville neighborhood where it’s a rarity to go to the public school we are zoned for. Several families go to that magnet school you mentioned. And almost every other private school in Knoxville has a family attending it from our neighborhood, plus homeschooling too. We chose Montessori for our kids and truly love that learning philosophy. I was torn about them having separate friend networks – one for school, one for church, one for neighborhood – but they really do overlap and the kids in our neighborhood are the kids they will most definlty remember growing up with and having impromptu play dates with almost daily. For us education came first – which ended up being a philosophy of learning not available at any public schools here in Knoxville – sadly so. A Montessori magnet school here would great!
ed commented on Aug 17 11 at 1:08 amEd writes: “Good Lord, let’s cut to the chase… This public school you are wondering if you should send you kid to…is it majority black?”
Actually Ed, it’s not. In fact, while our neighborhood is – as I noted – socially and economically diverse, it’s not racially diverse in the least. The public elementary school for which I am zoned is overwhemingly white. – Katie
*******************************Thanks for the reply. I clicked on one of the links in this post of yours.
You describe your neighborhood as being a gentrifying yet not yet gentrified urban neighborhood.
You and I have very different ideas of what constitutes “urban.” I looked the pictures, and your place looks very suburban, even rural.
That’s not a dig at you. There is nothing wrong with suburban or rural homes, people, or neighborhoods.
And maybe it is very urban, and I just didn’t see that from the pictures. It doesn’t matter.
Anyway, your home and your family look lovely.
Best wishes with your decision on where to school your kids.
Sincerely,
eduardo
marta commented on Aug 17 11 at 6:13 amMy brothers and I had exactly the same school history of your oldest 3. My own 3 children are having the local public schools history. We live in southern Europe. Putting aside all the obvious and big differences between the US and here, I would say that overall, my children’s childhood is less complicated and more carefree than our own. They can walk to school (and thus to their local friends’, the local park, the local ice cream parlor, …), they know their community and grow up with the diversity inside the classroom and the school yard. Academically speaking, the schools are far from stellar. There’s disruptive behaviour, dysfunctional families, the lot. But in my older son’s (11) handball team there’s every shade of skin and vocabulary ;) and that’s how the world really is. Maybe he hasn’t done all the lab experiments his counterparts in private school have done for Science, but he sure knows that some families need state subsidies to pay for the $2 school lunch – and that brings out a lot of perspective, understanding and, yes, empathy in your kids.
Marta from Lisbon, Portugal
Kate commented on Aug 17 11 at 12:59 pmA very controversial – and important – subject you’ve got here, I’m sorry to see that so many people have used this as a platform for spreading unfounded negativity. Full disclosure- too many trolls in the thread, I didn’t read all of the comments, so my apologies if I am being redundant.
I don’t think you will be making a bad or wrong choice no matter what you decide to do. I will opine that, in the case of over-crowded, under-funded schools, (as we have here in NYC) parents who can afford to send their children to a private school almost have a duty to do so, for the benefit of everyone…to ease the burden on the school and allow better conditions and attention to the kids who don’t have that option. I don’t know if that is an issue where you are, though, but that was the conclusion I reached after copious amounts of research I’ve done into the subject.
If you haven’t already, you should check out the mockumentary “Kindergarten Shuffle” about the process of choosing and applying for NYC schools (public and private). Personally I found it too realistic to stomach, but friends of mine who don’t live in the city have found it to be a fun bit of schadenfreude, and quite informative. There is also “nursery university” but I haven’t seen that one personally. Best of luck in your decision!
mamaj commented on Aug 17 11 at 4:17 pmI went through the same thought processes three-plus years ago when my older child was ready for kindergarten. I visited the school that is zoned as our “neighborhood school” and sadly, was not impressed. The building was run-down and the staff didn’t seem too interested. It was a stark contrast with the two “sought-after” schools in my town, which I also visited.
In the end, much as I loved in theory the idea of being the mom who sends her kid to the “worse” school and gets all involved and turns it around…I knew that just wasn’t realistic for me. I was a single mom with a kindergartner and a toddler and a full-time job; I felt that I needed to pick the school where I could feel that my son was getting a good education, and that was the bottom line. I ended up sending him to one of the more sought-after schools, which, though not in “our neighborhood,” is still not that far away — five minutes driving, or about 20 minutes walking (at kindergartner walking pace).
The school I chose still has a fair amount of ethnic and socioeconomic diversity, and my son has been doing very well there (and I expect my daughter will too — she starts kindergarten next month). And as predicted, I haven’t been able to get involved with the school community as much as I might like. So there’s plenty of opportunity for guilt, but in the end, I feel that I made the right choice for us at that time.
Incidentally, I read a study not too long ago that found that in a school with higher ethnic diversity, kids stick more closely to their own race in socializing. It’s interesting, because you might assume that the reverse would be true, but if you think about it, it starts to make some sense.
miriam commented on Aug 18 11 at 8:10 amI have to say that I disagree with the previous poster who says that if we can afford private school, we have a duty to remove our children from public school to make room for the kids who have to go there.
The very parents who can afford private school are the ones who have the social capital, time, and money to help change the local public school into a building everyone can be proud of.
If all the wealthier families leave (whether it’s to attend magnet schools or private schools) what are you left with?
Alisun Thompson commented on Aug 18 11 at 11:28 amI think the issue of neighborhood/private/charter/magnet is a complex one. I always assumed my children would go to the neighborhood school. As a public teacher, I valued public education and, of course, I would walk my talk. My daughter came of school-age during the Bush administration and in the early years of NCLB. Because I was a teacher, I saw first-hand the effects of the legislation — narrowing the curriculum at the expense of non-tested subjects. Because I taught in post-Prop 13 California, I was used to art and music being underfunded but I never thought I would watch Social Studies and Science on the chopping block. Teacher discretion was replaced by scripted curricula. Project-based learning was replaced by test-preparation. So … when push came to shove, I entered the lottery for a public/alternative/NON-charter option that offered multi-age classrooms, thematic instruction and focused on depth over breadth and the development of habits of mind and heart over skills (all thing that were not considered “alternative” when I began teaching the early 1990s). At that time, 95% of the parents in the school opted out of standardized testing (something we can do in California). I do, however, continue to advocate for quality education for all children and oppose, at every turn, legislation that undermines teacher autonomy, privatizes public education, and looks to the market for ideas on how to “improve” our schools.
Father of Two commented on Aug 18 11 at 6:05 pmMiriam said:
“I have to say that I disagree with the previous poster who says that if we can afford private school, we have a duty to remove our children from public school to make room for the kids who have to go there.
The very parents who can afford private school are the ones who have the social capital, time, and money to help change the local public school into a building everyone can be proud of.”
I realize “choose the right school” and “always choose private school” is a contradiction, so if that was the main thrust of your argument I’m with you. However, you seemed to imply in the second paragraph that parents have a duty to send their kids to a school which, at least until they “change” it, begins as a school they cannot “be proud of”.
So which is it? Do you believe parents should sacrifice their children’s real education for the transcendent politics of public education as an institution, or should parents put the welfare of their own children first, evaluating all schooling options without bias?(My criteria and ultimate decision to send my kids to public school I explained in a previous post.)
cranberry commented on Aug 18 11 at 10:03 pmThe thread’s filled with dozens of personal stories. Anecdotes are not evidence.
I believe schools are very stable cultures. It’s very hard to change a school, unless a significant portion of the children, families and staff change. Private and public schools can be great, or terrible–but once the school’s culture’s established, it will persist.
If you were impressed by the school your older children attended, I would recommend you stay with the school. (If you can afford it.) There are very few wonderful schools in the world. You are running the risk of sacrificing your child’s place in a “wonderful” school community for your dream of the perfect.
Carole Anne commented on Aug 19 11 at 12:11 amDuring my junior year of HS, my parents moved from my uncle’s house to the one they had just bought. It was in the adjacent town and, although many kids in that town were zoned to go to the same great public HS I had been currently attending, the house my parents bought was sadly zoned about 2 blocks away from that district line and so I had to change schools.
As soon as I told my classmates, they seemed horrified. Let’s just say that while our cushy public HS (which felt more like a private school because affording to live in the right neighborhood was not easy – crazy high property taxes led to high rent even for those who weren’t homeowners) was amazing, the other one was known for gang violence and lower test scores. When my mother spread the news to our family and her friends, they all cried out that same passion.
Right away, my mother considered sending me to private school, but sadly could not afford it. So for my senior year of HS, I went to a “bad” school full of diverse kids. The classes were a bit easier because the teachers often gave easier tests and gave students notes rather than expecting them to take them theselves. However, it also provided classes that did not exist at my previous snobby publich HS. Bullying was not an issue once I found classmates who were active in the school and befriended them; they helped me get into the latino heritage festival and I became known as “that white girl in the red dress”. Gang problems also did not exist anymore thanks to the security the school provided and really only occured outside late at night if you were wearing gang colors (which my classmates explained to me right away). I felt more comfortable there, and enjoyed that HS more, than I had before because I was able to attend new classes, had classmates who were not clicky and actually accepted me despite being only 1 of about 4 white kids in the entire school, and had more opportunities after school as well because the wide range of kids made more clubs available for my choosing.
I actually started to wish I could have gone to that HS there as my previous snobby one actually made it difficult for me to find friends and so I only felt comfortable with hanging out with one person – my best friend – for school activities and outside. At my new school, I had many more school-only friends and right away I even hung out with a few other kids outside of school. This was sad as both schools were about equidistant so there really was no distance barrier.
My point is this: find out exactly what makes a school “bad”, find out what classes and activies are offered – not just what their test scores are – to see if there are new opportunities available, and try to find a few kids that go there so you can ask them directly how the other few white kids manage and how good/bad the bullying rate is rather than going by 3rd party hearsay.
Even my cousin, who actually attended a real private school for her elementary and middle school years, kept wishing she could attend a public one. It took years for her to convince her father that private schools weren’t automatically better. For her sophomore year, she finally got her wish to go to a public one where she could attend AP classes that her old private school did not offer because few kids had the time to attend them (she blamed it on the religion courses taking up a lot of potential academic time despite her getting that same religious education at her church’s sunday schooling and felt that those who attended external religious courses should be allowed to be exempt from the private school ones). Her private school also offered only a handful of club activities as most kids simply took the private bus home as soon as school ended in order to get back home at a reasonable time.
Once she switched over to the local HS, she still kept up with her old private school friends – especially the ones that lived nearby – while making new friends at the local HS. She joined new AP classes, got into many clubs, and had many college opportunities waiting for her. Despite having scholarships and being accepted in private colleges that her parents could definitely afford, she decided to attend a local SUNY and plans to stay there for her bachelor’s because she knew many students at private universities dormed – and partied – there, while the SUNY schools would still allow her to live close enough by to have a social life if she did stay there late for clubs and other social gatherings, without having to worry about classmates being privileged my-parents-can-afford-this-so-it’s-ok-if-it-takes-me-longer-to-get-a-stupid-degree partyheads. She’ll go to a private school for her Master’s but that’s only because people in her ideal job industry tend to look down at Master’s from public universities.
harriet commented on Aug 19 11 at 11:49 amHow are your younger children going to feel when they’re older and figure out they haven’t been given nearly as good an education as you gave their older siblings?
I understand the issues involved–last year I spent 2 hours a day driving my profoundly gifted daughter to a special school–but with all due respect, issues like these are why I only had two children, not five. I grew up in a family with four kids and there was never enough resources to go around. My life would have been considerably easier if I’d had the kind of upper-middle-class upbringing my college classmates had mostly had. So I made a conscious decision to have only two, so that whatever they needed, I could give it to them.
Amy K commented on Aug 19 11 at 1:59 pmMy daughter isn’t quite old enough for school yet, but we’ll be sending her to Montessori when she is. Our school district is mediocre, and the idea that you can supplement a child’s deficient education at home is bunk after elementary school. What, you’re going to supplement physics and art history and French and calculus at home in the evenings? Right. I’m not a teacher. I want my kid to have what I consider to be a well-rounded education, and I don’t think that’s available in American public schools these days outside of the very best districts. Diverse socialization can be supplemented outside of school. The other stuff can’t.
jzzy55 commented on Aug 19 11 at 4:13 pmHarriet’s comment — G and C have different parents and a different life and they will understand perfectly well why they had different schooling. Also, E and J are so much older than G and C that their memories of E and J’s different school(s) won’t amount to much. C will be about nine when E goes off to college. She won’t remember much about that HS, far away in another town and populated by a race of giants.
Isn’t it strange how everyone keeps assuming your concerns about your neighborhood school have to be racial.
And as for Leroy and Shaniqua teaching sweet little C bad things. I’ve worked in all–white and ethnically and racially diverse schools, too, and trust me, there is no monopoly on who models bad language and behavior. The flavors are different but crude, rude behavior is everywhere. I’m not half as bothered by a kid who uses the F word but is funny and kind than I am by a kid who is mean-spirited. You can fix the first kid’s language, but it’s harder to fix a personality.
Father of Two commented on Aug 19 11 at 4:22 pmThe thread’s filled with dozens of personal stories. Anecdotes are not evidence.”
So? We’re not trying to prove a statistical fact; we’re trying to give good advice.
“Here is what I did and why it worked,” may be anecdotal but that doesn’t make it any less useful. If Ms. Granju did what I did she would be making the right decision — that decision being “get the facts, get a feel for the situation, and make as unbiased a decision as you can.”
Her local public school is not a statistic; it is a specific institution in a specific neighborhood under a specific administration that may or may not offer a quality educational experience for her daughter, a specific individual with specific talents and challenges.
Especially if your child is gifted or learning-disabled you have to be very careful where you send her. “Look first” is good advice. “Ignore all this advice because it’s anecdotal” is bad advice.
Mother of Two commented on Aug 19 11 at 7:43 pmYou have to do what is best for you children and their future, no matter where you live.
Heather commented on Aug 20 11 at 2:55 pmI have to strongly disagree with the impression I got from your post that everyone who lives in the suburbs of Knoxville, by which you seem to mean West Knoxville/Farragut, is affluent. As a native Knoxvillian who has lived in several areas of town in my 41 years I can see plainly that this is not the case. Perhaps if you only interact with those who can afford to attend the Episcopal School you would think so.
I know that this is not relevant to the discussion at hand, but it really bugged me as I read the post.
the muskrat commented on Aug 21 11 at 2:17 pmI wrote about that decision a few months ago:
http://fathermuskrat.com/2011/03/15/does-idealism-die-when-its-your-kids/
We ended up putting the children in private preschool and moved before kindergarten started. However, the above post pissed off some neighbors who’d planned to change the local school and enroll their child but then changed their mind, as the school not only had failing test scores, but it was involved in the notorious Atlanta Public Schools cheating scandal. So, bad to worse. I don’t blame them.
Marcela commented on Aug 21 11 at 5:15 pmI live in a city much like yours, but am a big supporter of public schools. I dislike that so many people like you (but give you credit for thinking about it) tend to not give public a chance and invest in their neighborhood schools and instead go looking for private.
Whats funny is that now because of the economy a lot of parents like you are having to switch to public and are finding out that with parent involvement and support from the community these schools are not as bad as they thought.
My son has been in public education since Kindergarten, is Latino, gifted, plays instruments, scores advanced on all his tests (which is not the only thing we strive for) and does lot’s of reading and hands on learning here at home.
Sometimes because their are a lot of different colors in public schools as in Latinos and African Americans we decide that the school is just not that good.
I say give it a chance! Take a tour, talk to neighborhood parents, go to a parent meeting… don’t judge a book by it’s cover.
Jen commented on Aug 21 11 at 10:03 pmI wish I could read through all of these before commenting and also that I could just talk to you for about an hour or three. But to try to boil it down to comment length:
1) Go to the school (without C). You go and have Jon go separately. If you need to set up with the principal a day to spend more time, do so. If they won’t let you in to look around? That’s a huge warning sign. There may be restrictions, but as long as you’re with a teacher or aide, there shouldn’t be a problem with observing a whole lesson, or a whole morning or afternoon with a K class and also with another grade level. You’ll know.–>> 15 years ago, this advice convinced many people I knew who were scared of our urban schools (scared both of neighborhood and magnet choices) to go public. Nowadays, after 5 years of intensive “reform,” there are only 3 schools out of about 30 elementary schools that I would even consider. The curriculum and its enforcement has taken away the chances for excellent teachers to teach well.
Suffice it to say we loved the education our oldest got, are happy our second has only one year left and will, with VERY heavy hearts most likely remove the last one after 5th grade and do at least middle school in a different setting.
Ankh commented on Aug 22 11 at 3:55 amOften times, real change takes not one individual but a committed “critical mass” of people. Maybe other parents in the neighborhood can meet up and see if you collectively want to give the local kindergarten a try? We don’t have kids yet, but will face similar issues down the road if we stay in our neighborhood, so I’ve been mulling over these issues a bit.
Kate commented on Aug 22 11 at 10:28 am“I have to say that I disagree with the previous poster who says that if we can afford private school, we have a duty to remove our children from public school to make room for the kids who have to go there.
The very parents who can afford private school are the ones who have the social capital, time, and money to help change the local public school into a building everyone can be proud of.
If all the wealthier families leave (whether it’s to attend magnet schools or private schools) what are you left with?”With all do respect, Miriam, you seem to be suggesting that low income parents are worthless drones, incapable of rallying for their children, which is horribly untrue. You will find vigorously passionate moms and dads at any level, and you can bet your ass that they’ll be fighting to give their children the best that they can.
I don’t think that shoving more students than necessary into the hands of a teacher who will be spread too thin to be effective because their parents have more “social capital” is really a viable solution.
Besides, public schools are subject to public voting, and anyone can make monetary donations/educational contributions regardless of whether or not they have children there, so “what you’re left with” then is each student getting more personal attention across the board, while anyone, social capital or not, can work towards making the public schools better. (using myself as an example: my kids are in private school but I still follow the goings on of the public schools closely, always vote, and financially support PSs whenever I can.) Will it always work out this way? Maybe not…but IMHO trusting in our communities to take care of our own is better than forcing kids who have no choice to sacrifice some of the nurturing they would otherwise receive to make room for students who don’t have to be there.
But perhaps I have too much faith in human nature.
Father of Two commented on Aug 22 11 at 4:02 pmJen said:
“Nowadays, after 5 years of intensive “reform,” there are only 3 schools out of about 30 elementary schools that I would even consider.”
Good point! Schools change over time. It’s important to stay involved.
Parents shouldn’t kid themselves that “staying involved” can keep a good school from going bad, but it certainly couldn’t hurt, and if you stay involved you will at least know when it’s time to get your kids out.
That goes for any school, private or public. Private schools go off the rails, too. They don’t survive long when they do, but that doesn’t make them immune to failure.
* * *
Jen said:
“… VERY heavy heart …”
All this hand-wringing for public schools! They exist to serve you, not the other way around. To make decisions in the interest of their children is the duty of all parents. Feel proud that you have done yours, and if any politically correct nags want to get in your face over it stand your ground. Paying them lip service only makes them stronger.
Never regret doing what’s right for your children!
HomemakerMan commented on Aug 22 11 at 11:42 pmMy wife is a public school teacher whose school is losing resources and jobs due to the proliferation of charter schools and yet because of the test scores, reputation of the schools, and rumors of criminal activity–larsony–by the superintendent, and a ringing “I wouldn’t raise my kids here” endorsement by a local pre-school teacher, we are still considering sending our oldest to kindergarten at a charter school 3 miles away. Its a frigging hard decision.
LW commented on Aug 23 11 at 2:16 pmGood luck. I’ve had 2 of my kids in our neighborhood public school of large Pacific NW urban district but now they go to private. Our school is considered one of the good ones. But with budget cuts, the classes get bigger and bigger and by 3rd grade the teacher was spending tons of classroom time dealing with the few trouble makers to the detriment of the rest of the class. But… I’m sending my next kiddo there anyway — every year he spends there saves us money for later and he will make neighborhood friends. I’d say give kindergarten a try and see how it goes. A kid who was going to be fine academically is going to be fine academically, no matter where they spend their time when they’re 5, 6, 7 years old because they get so much enrichment at home.
lgm commented on Aug 23 11 at 2:39 pmYou need to go in with your eyes open. Tour, talk to parents of high acheivers.
Our neighborhood changed dramatically, going poorer. When my son was called out for Jr. National Honor Society he found that he was the only child on his middle school team to qualify scholastically. His classmates informed him that there was ‘no need to do that well’. Had that been the attitude all through, I would have found another option on Day 2. Fortunately there are still enough interested in academics that honors classes haven’t been totally cut in the high school. Another good point about attending a diverse high school is that few go out for anything, even with free transport home after school…so if yours is willing to work and gain skills, varsity sports have little competition. Clubs are small as are advanced class sizes. The downside is that you have to provide a lot of academics at home if you want your child to be prepared for college, as the school simply won’t go beyond basic in the nonhonors classrooms once the population shift means that there are beaucoup remedial students and behavior problems. Resources have to be shifted to purchase the remedial teachers, security guards, attorneys, and remedial school..that comes straight out of the honors/AP budget – check out the major newspapers and you’ll see this shift in other areas. Oh, one last thing. If you ask for higher academic levels in the classroom, you’ll be branded an elitist. Watch what you say publicly.
Abby commented on Aug 24 11 at 5:54 pmHaven’t had a chance to read through all of the comments, but I just wanted to chime in with my two cents. This is solely MY experience, in MY city, with MY circumstances, so take it for what it’s worth. I went to both a public school in a very affluent area, and also later (6th grade on) went to private school. I had great experiences at both, but never first hand experienced a school that was considered “bad” or in a “rough” area of town. Three of my younger siblings did, as my parents divorced and my newly single mom couldn’t afford private school for all five of us. Well, the things I heard and saw of the public middle and high schools were appalling. Seriously, horrific. They had a huge high school smack dab in the middle of the city’s richest neighborhood, but over 75 % of the students were bussed in from across town, the lower income areas. Which is AWESOME, I think it is essential to expose kids to what the real world will look like once they leave high school. But, there were lots and lots and lots of fights due to “class” wars (my sister got punched in the face and called a rich b!tch because my mom would pick her up from school in a Ford Explorer. Which I guess means you’re rich?). My other sister learned quickly to duck and cover under a cafeteria table due to three shootings (gang related, gangs from across town) in her FIRST SEMESTER IN HIGH SCHOOL. As in, she was barely fifteen years old. No thank you, people. You can all wax poetic about “doing things for the greater good”, but I will be damned if I am going to sacrifice my kids to a system that cannot protect them any better than teaching them to duck and cover and not wear red or blue gang colors to school, has substandard academics, all with the hope that my sending them there can somehow change things. My point is this: I think anyone who puts a child into a school only because it is private or public is a fool. Put your kids where you feel they will be benefitted the most, with academics, the socializing aspect of school life, and also safety. If anyone wants to poo-poo you for putting your daughter in the neighborhood school, if you truly feel it is a good place for her? Or vice versa, and you put her in private school because you feel it’s best? Screw em. But please don’t put her in a public school ONLY because sending her to private school feels “icky” to you and maybe doesn’t line up with your ideals, personal or political. For christssakes, she is FIVE. She has no clue that she would be attending the public school so that her parents can feel good about THEIR choice. And? Even though I went to the whitest whitey white school EVER, we still had diversity in our lives. Black family friends (and sisters! I have two adopted sisters), rich friends and poor friends, Hispanic friends from church groups, Asian kids in our after school math classes. If diversity is important to you, you can find a way to make it happen for your kids.
Heidi commented on Aug 28 11 at 6:10 pmI live in the same city. I’m a transplant and have dealt with a lot of questions regarding schools while helping others move to this area. Here’s what I’ve found.
The entire system is very good. Test scores go up or down depending on demographics but the same curriculum is taught in these schools. Let’s face it, your zoned for a school that has a majority of its students from a lower socioeconomic background. This has nothing to do with the quality of the school.
And a case can be made that great teachers are attracted to a challenge rather than stellar teachers want to go to the school with the kids that have parents with more time and resources.
Or maybe not.
But the school quality is the same. In fact, sometimes schools that are failing benefit from more grants.
I have a friend that is a professor at UT. He says the kids from this county demonstrate the same abilities no matter the school. The students that are behind tend to come from small towns and rural communities with less funding.
By the way, our daughter just entered a middle school in the northern part of the city.
Kendra commented on Sep 10 11 at 10:41 pmHi Katie, long time reader, first time commenter…this hit a nerve with me. I have a first grader starting his second year in a school with a large Title One population. In my state, have school choice, and I chose this school for him over our neighborhood school. I visited several of the schools, including our neighborhood school, which draws from a primarily middle class neighborhood. The thing I saw is that our feeder school also has title one kids, but they railroad them through the day…free breakfast? Congratulations, now you are late for class, etc. At the sxhool where my son goes, they have a “social program” called Responsive Classroom, largely the reason I chose this school over the usual sticker/star chart/points based behavior program. Our feeder school’s administrators are also very unwelcoming of parents in the school, unless you want to make copies. Now, I make copies at my son’s school, but am also asked for my input on planting trees by the PTA, suggest “Really
Rosie” to second grade girls who are great readers, but want to be Selena Gomez, bring Science lessons in to help out teachers, and pick dog poo off the front sidewalk that even a blind person could see is the front walk of a Public school. Yes, my son now knows about such cultural phenomena as rap, lady gaga and transformers, and he also understands now that some people come from hard places. I have never felt more proud as when my son wanted to make a trophy to encourage a boy in his class who had had an “unusual” good day, and this was the beginning of this boy feeling like he belonged enough to stop trying to stab other kids with scissors…a boy I know whose “daddy is in jail” because he told me so. Yes, I see where you are coming from about being the first, and I am not the first, because you see, this school also houses the Gifted Program for our school district’s elementary program, and this year, my son was nominated for and is in this program. Yet, I would have kept him at this school regardless of that. I think it is primarily parents of children in this program who make the difference…that and the amazing staff who were hired to take care of the children who have free breakfast and have decided to wait to have the “morning meeting” characteristic of the responsive classroom *after* the kids a all done with breakfast….this compassion and regard for those children at this school is what makes me feel good…and this year, I have a lot of little friends, and as a parent who has lots of time, I am an advocate for every single on of them. My children are going to encounter kids from a lot of different backgroundsin their lives, and in every facet, these are teachable moments; yes, there are children who do not always have breakfast…we feed them and we treat them like people. Yes, there are people who use “ain’t” (or other questionable language” …it isn’t proper, therefore, we do not use that language. We are non-believers, so we run into this kind of cognitive
dissonance between what others do and what we do all of the time. Last year at back to school night, my husband was dubious…indeed I doubted whether I had made the right choice, but as the year wore on and the administrators and teachers responded to an issue I had and I had lots of time to be present and to be an advocate, my very visceral choice was redeemed. My son loves his school, he has friends from all different backgrounds and more compassion than I ever thought a six year old could have. You have more children and more experience than I, so I am sure that you will find that your unique ability to be involved and to guide your youngest children in a very different setting will be able to live up to the desire you have to “walk the walk”, as you look at the schools, I urge you to look at the places where you can insert yourself, advocate and make a difference. A year ago, I was close to begging my husband to let me work so that I could send my son to the local Friends school. Now I am part of a community that I feel like I can benefit as much from as can some others from my contribution. I am not writing this to convince you that you should be the vanguard in your neighborhood, but to consider your own capacity and to consider some attributes and opportunities in your local school that you might not have on your tidy little “what I want for my daughter to have a perfect Kindergarten experience” want list.
Denise commented on Sep 10 11 at 11:23 pmI completely agree with the commenter “Dad of Homeschoolers.” I had to laugh to myself when I saw that people actually spend 20K a year to send their children to private school. If you have the money, and you are educated, and you want a good education for your children, why not homeschool them? I saw other people use the argument that you can send your child to the best school and supplement “diverse socialization” outside of school. Why not supplement all socialization outside of school? It sounds like your children (and probably MOST other children) have a lot of contact with other children in the neighborhood – some of you probably have your kids in sports, or dance, or church, or playgroups – all outside of school. That is all a child needs to be socialized. And quite frankly, school shouldn’t be about socialization = it should be about education. If, as parents, you want to teach your children how to live in a diverse culture – the best place for them to learn that is probably not at school where they will most likely end up in a clique with peers who are like themselves. The best way to teach them that is to display that in your own lives and teach them by the morals and ethics you pass down to them.
All that to say, homeschooling is a very real and valuable alternative to sending children to a school. You are their teacher so you know what they are learning, how they learn best, and what they need to work on. You will only get that information second hand from the teachers in the schools who have 20 other children, just in THAT classroom, to worry about in any given day.
My husband and I moved from NY to GA, and one of the reasons was because we knew GA would be a better climate to homeschool rather than NY. With the way NY’s education system is set up (albeit one of the best education systems in the US) it is not encouraging of homeschooling as an option. Since we have moved to GA (1 month ago) we have met already a hand-full of homeschool families who have fantastic resources to offer us and the encouragement to press on in our conviction to raise and teach our children at home. I know its not as easy as sending your child on a bus to school for someone else to deal with for 7 hours out of the day, and it takes sacrifice of career or social life, but if you really want to do what is BEST for your child, consider the option that teaching them yourself may just be the best thing for their education. As I said, socialization can be supplemented in MANY other ways.
Anne 2 commented on Sep 12 11 at 1:56 pmOK, I am commenting late, but I am feeling the need to say that many people here need to challenge their assumptions. I don’t think schools that cater to wealthier children are always the best. In my experience, there are lots of caring parents who do not have high-earning jobs. I grew up going to an urban school with poor test scores and I feel as if I was better prepared for college than some suburban kids who got A+s for breathing in high school.
But, you never know until you investigate. Caring parents + fired up administrators + dedicated teachers is always a winning formula, and these can be found all over the country serving many different demographics.
amy commented on Sep 12 11 at 7:25 pmThis entire situation is entirely foreign to me. Where we are, it’s pretty much a given that your children go to the school that your neighbourhood is zoned for. It’s rare to be able to attend a school in a different area unless it’s french immersion or catholic. If parents are avoiding sending their children to the locally zoned schools, they’re doing those schools no favours at all, in my opinion.
moi commented on Sep 14 11 at 12:00 pmAmerican public schools are in shambles, and it’s not because parents opt not to attend them. when our number one priority is freedom to own a gun, and start wars wherever and whenever and endless occupation it’s no wonder we have little left for education.
Any funds for public schools go over seas to build infrastructure WE DESTROYED. Building schools, hospitals and roads for other countries.
My local elementary school stopped offering a really good Pre K program cause local government slashed the budget.
Even the public schools in better neighborhoods that are considered good are frankly just a less scary option. We rank VERY LOW in many categories, including science and maths.
Good luck America, you’ll need it.
Jen commented on Sep 15 11 at 12:28 amWe had this dilemma five years ago when our twins were just about to enter Kindergarten. We loved our neighborhood, but kind of feared the schools. They had been attending a private pre-school with a K-8 associated with it, so that was an option, but even though it was only a 10-minute drive away & because it was downtown the kids all came from different areas of the county. The only common denominator seemed to be that everyone had at least one parent working downtown. There was no sense of community. After touring our local school & talking to teachers who worked there, we were advised not to send our kids there. One teacher pulled me aside & said, “I wish parents like you in this neighborhood would send your children here, but no one does and so your kids with their preschool education will be miles above the rest of the incoming Kindergarten class. You should get in a lottery for one of the magnet schools?” That was pretty depressing. Since I had twins, both of them would have to be picked at random for the same magnet. That seemed pretty unlikely. What we ended up doing, much to my dismay at first, was taking the monthly tuition we would have paid at private school (which seemed our only option) & put it toward the mortgage of a house in the best school district in the suburbs. I hated having to move at first and I hated the suburbs, but we did have the exact education and sense of community we had thought important for our kids. The kids are in 4th grade now & my husband and I have finally gotten used to living in suburbia, but the kids love it. We had to turn in our hipster cards, but the sense of school community has been worth it. And we’ve found a couple other families in the new hood who are in our same boat.
Anne-Marie commented on Sep 21 11 at 11:16 amAs a product of private schools, I’m baffled at the idea that the individual has some responsibility to the public school in the area. Huh? You live there. You might not someday. Are you beholden to any of those people but your kids? No!
Not going to the public school was never a personal affront to the kids in our neighborhood who were our friends. My parents chose to send us to private school because they valued education and didn’t see the quality they expected in the public elementary school down the street.
And just to get it off my chest, let me say that these powerhouse public schools in “good” neighborhoods are kind of a travesty. It’s a free private school for those who are choosing to spend their money on cars and vacations and other frivolous bullshit while not paying anything for their child’s education. Go ahead and argue that they’re paying taxes for that- but so is everyone else in the neighborhood who doesn’t have a kid in public schools. I worked for a woman who would spend hours on her cell phone bitching and moaning about her kid being in a 4th/5th combo class at a magnet school while wearing 300 dollar jeans. Get. A. Clue. If you expect more from your public school than it can be, you better get your priorities in order.
Leslie commented on Sep 25 11 at 10:44 pmEw. Poor people.
Debbie commented on Sep 29 11 at 10:31 amI would try the school for a year. The actual time spent learning in kindergarten is minimal for children from affluent backgrounds since parents are reading/writing/educating at home too. But the socialization is valuable.
I’d also encourage you to run for School Board, where you can make a difference in the lives of all of the children in your neighborhood.
One final point: if you want your children to go to an elite college, you’ll have a better chance if they attend the neighborhood schools. The easier homework will give them more time for extracurricular activities, sports, volunteering and their passions. You’ll have to pay extra for SAT prep and some summer education (e.g. many Ivies have summer programs for high school students), but your child will have a strong chance of admittance as applications are graded by cohort. So they are compared to peers in their school and similar schools rather than to their peers from similar economic backgrounds who had the same advantages. So you’d be increasing the chance that your child would be able to experience all of the advantages of a Harvard or a Yale….
And you’d be raising children who truly were income and color blind…and that would be particularly cool.
I should note that my own kids are not old enough for school yet, so my opinion might evolve as they age.
jros mom commented on Oct 13 11 at 6:40 amTest scores are only one piece of the puzzle. I purposely send my kids to great schools in not-so-great neighborhoods. There are kids there who struggle everywhere. There are lousy teachers everywhere and it’s way easier to teach to a homogeneous group. The good teachers & administrators who choose the “challenged” schools are exceptional. That’s what you want in a school. People who give a crap. Get involved. Make noise about the things that matter. Let the rest go. Make sure the principal knows you and your kid. Make friends with the custodian. Your child’s education is a partnership.
Sarah Herron commented on Nov 15 11 at 4:14 pmThis is exactly why I’m so involved in the charter school movement. New laws in Tennessee are making it possible to offer school choice to rural and suburban areas (not just failing districts in urban areas–Nashville, Memphis, Chattanooga). I’m part of the founding team trying to open the first suburban charter school in Tennessee, HOPE Academy (a K-5 STEM academy, that will add a grade every year to eventually be a K-12 school). Charter schools are very similar to magnet schools–non-tuition public school with unique curriculum. Charters are autonomous, which means they work outside many state mandates and free from the district’s control, but with high accountability for student performance. So learning is individualized. The charter school functions under the leadership of a non-profit board and certified educators. HOPE Academy will be located in Blount County (20 miles from Knoxville) More than just helping kids reach their fullest potential academically in an empowering 21st century environment, it will offer the kind of small school culture that moms dream of for their kids. Visit http://www.hopeacademyTN.org for more information.
Good luck with your decision! Thanks, Sarah (www.blondemomshell.com)
Trisha commented on Mar 06 12 at 11:35 amI think it’s telling that you don’t know anyone who sends their kids to your local school. Somebody is sending their kids there. And if it’s your neighborhood school, they are by some geographic definition your neighbors. Why don’t you get to know them, then?
MayasMomma214 commented on Mar 27 12 at 6:24 pmI went to private school, then magnet school, then public school (neighborhood), and I honestly learned the most at magnet school (mine was math, science, and technology based). I did not like private school at all. Public school was ok, but I was really burned out on switching schools at that point (I went to 5 different high schools- 1 of which was my FAVORITE school- a trade school)
Casey Aurora commented on Apr 23 12 at 2:39 amseveral thanks pertaining to expressing so competent write-up !
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